WELCOME HANGER....

Ithaca 37 · May 15, 2003

Hanger, Try saying this a few times--

Education isn't working!

"The increased violations for this season occurred despite the special expenditure of $265,000 in the past four months on increased law enforcement, orientation and education of visitors."

http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2003/03/14/news/wyoming/ba3e96 46056be12c72f44906cade1566.txt

Got any other bright ideas?

Seems like you came here looking for a fight! Please just pick an issue and educate us.

mike, "self rightout," What's that? Is it anything like self leftout?

Whatever happened to your peace and love campaign?

[ 05-15-2003 23:57: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]

cjcj · May 16, 2003

crime rates are high in major cities, because of all of the ILLEGAL`S [yes i`m obsessed with hating them!]

Ithaca 37 · May 16, 2003

Hang., "My point was the BRC is not advocating misuse, as you have alledged. "

Can you quote me saying BRC is advocating misuse? I can't remember where I said it.

"They (BRC) advocate public land is for everyone, not a select few that want it all to themselves."

Only a select few want ATVs kept out of Wilderness and roadless areas? Could you enlighten us about that?

"A nationwide poll by the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Alliance showed that 83% of hunters do not want more forest roads. A poll by GOP pollster Linda DiVall found that Republicans by 2-to-1 (62% to 31%) favored an end to road building in our forests.

Protection of roadless areas means the preservation of wildlife habitat and the hunting tradition. Wildlife need large roadless areas where they will be undisturbed by motorized vehicles. Roads fragment their habitat and restrict their food sources. With more roads also comes more poaching.

Hunters know the best hunting is found in large roadless areas...."

http://www.rep.org/opinions/letters/8.htm

That "select few" myth is still being used by the BRC.

Here's a little more info on the BRC:

"Groups like the Blue Ribbon Coalition, which represents OHV interests and is one of the original signatories to the Wise Use Agenda, and politicians beholding to timber and mining industries, screamed bloody murder, claiming that the Forest Service is trying to “lock up” the land..."

http://pws.chartermi.net/~duluthikes/wu_roadless.htm

Hanger, We've already discussed your issues to death in SI. I'm not going to reiterate it all. But good luck getting a discussion going.

[ 05-16-2003 04:18: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]

Ten Bears · May 16, 2003

Hangar, we've hashed over the snomobile issue/article earlier. I'll look for it so you can read it.

One thing about IT though, as soon as you get him over a barrel, he'll whine about the trival things and then change the subject.

Muledeer4me · May 16, 2003

"Hanger, We've already discussed your issues to death in SI. I'm not going to reiterate it all. But good luck getting a discussion going" ROFLMAO

Good one Ithaca, haven't we dissussed ALL OF YOUR ISSUES AND AGENDAS TO DEATH? What now make's this one off limit's?

Welcome Hanger.
Get used to the Ithaca (spin ,run,duck and hide out till it all cool's down) LOL
Ithaca takes the BRC and multipal use and put's the Green agenda spin on it to look like all we want is to built more roads and be allowed into the wilderness area we now have---------
Im sure you mean well Hanger,But gets used to it because the almighty Ithaca has labeled you a (stupid fat asses land rapping beer drinking sign shooting moron) all because you own,ride,or have the gall to mention multipal use on public land's)
Doesnt matter what you are really like ,you got the label baby

Hanger,If I can quote Ted Nugent you have hit Ithaca (Dead center bull'e eye,and not to shabby )ROFLMAO

Ithaca 37 · May 16, 2003

Hanger, I just meant I'm not going to go over the whole topic again. I don't care what the rest of them do. If you can get a discussion going that's terrific. Good luck with it.

I sincerely hope you start lots of great topics and get lots of debates going.

Ten and MD4M rarely do anything constructive to keep this forum active.

Take a look at the total number of topics they've started this year!

Then look at their success with them!

[ 05-16-2003 10:26: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]

Ten Bears · May 16, 2003

IT, how many have I started, and how many have you started but not finished? When you don't finish them, are you conceding defeat?

Hangar18 · May 16, 2003

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ithaca 37:
Hang...Can you quote me saying BRC is advocating misuse? I can't remember where I said it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ithaca 37 04-19-2003 in this thread:
In spite of all the talk about the "hard working groups and clubs who are educating people about ethical ATV riding" the problem just gets worse. The BRC claims to have 600,000 members! How many of the 600,000, do you suppose, are educating everyone about ethical riding? I think the 600,000 thousand are having ZERO effect! I even think the 600,000 members are contributing to the problem by supporting the BRC.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spin it however you want to. Quit bashing them. That's why I came in here. I also read your post in which you state the BRC is affiliated with the Wise Use Movement. Where did you find this information? I sincerely want to know, because if the BRC is still affiliated with something those others you listed are affiliated with, they are getting a phone call.

BLUERIBBON COALITION
RECREATIONAL CODE OF ETHICS

1. I will respect the rights of all recreationalists to enjoy the beauty of the outdorrs. I will respect public and private property.

2. I will park considerately, taking no more space than needed, without blocking other vehicles, and without impeding access to trails.

3. I will keep to the right when meeting another recreationist. I will yield the right-of-way to traffic moving uphill.

4. I will slow down and use caution when approaching or overtaking another recreationist.

5. I will respect designated areas, trail-use signs and established trails.

6. When stopping I will not block the trail.

7. I will not disturb wildlife. I will avoid areas posted for the protection of feeding wildlife.

8. I will pack out everything I pack in, and will not litter.

9. I realize that my destination objective and travel speed should be determined by my equipment, ability, the terrain, weather, and the traffic on the trail. In case of an emergency, I will volunteer assistance.

10. I will not interfere with or harass others. I recognize that people judge all trail users by my actions.

11. As a motorized trail user, I will pull off the trail and stop my engine when encountering horse back riders (it is also a good idea to take off your helmet and greet the riders).

POLICY STATEMENTS

The BRC supports the policy of limiting wheeled off-highway vehicles (OHV) use to existing roads and trails, in areas where cross country use of OHV has been adequately studied and shown to cause adverse impacts.

The BRC supports the designation of Wilderness in areas that truly meet the characteristics identified in the 1964 Wilderness Act...

The BRC supports and champions responsible multiple use of public lands.

We support the use of OHV by hunters. We do recognize that inappropriate use of vehicles during hunting season may cause unacceptable environmental and social impacts.

The BRC supports adherence to the Tread Lightly! principles in all text and images in the vehicle advertising. Advertisements should always show safe and environmentally responsible behaviors.

The "Select Few" idea comes from me in this context, not the BRC. A select few want areas all to themselves, no noise from motorized travelers, no tracks through "their private" telemarking hill. Their solution is to lock people out save for those that can ride a horse, xc-ski or walk. There are 4 million acres of wilderness area and 9.3 million acres of inventoried roadless area in Idaho. That's enough for your own private Idaho. I'm done.

Ten Bears & MD4me - Thanks. I read a lot of his/her posts and you are both right. Typical democRat

Proud to bear the label despite he/she knowing nothing about me. I'll consider the source. Narrow minded people often resort to stereotyping and name calling when they have nothing intelligent to say.

edit: formatting correction

[ 05-16-2003 10:51: Message edited by: HANGAR 18 ]

BuzzH · May 16, 2003

Hey Hangar18, how did the BRC do in keeping those 17 hunting units in SW Idaho open to ATV's during hunting season?...I'd say they dropped the ball big-time!

Theres more and more areas facing restricted ATV use all the time...and lots more coming in the near future.

Rather than support a losing group, I'd suggest spending that money on a good pair of boots, you'll be needing them.

Hangar18 · May 16, 2003

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by BuzzH:
Hey Hangar18, how did the BRC do in keeping those 17 hunting units in SW Idaho open to ATV's during hunting season?...I'd say they dropped the ball big-time!

Theres more and more areas facing restricted ATV use all the time...and lots more coming in the near future.

Rather than support a losing group, I'd suggest spending that money on a good pair of boots, you'll be needing them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are right, they did drop the ball.

As long as the BRC are fighting to keep areas open to snowmobiling, I'm going to keep sending them $$.

My Danner boots cost $190 3 years ago and have never been on footpegs.

I suggest you try a new line. Recycling your own so-called words of wisdom is egotistical at the very least.

Ten Bears · May 16, 2003

BUZZ, maybe you haven't read that part of the regulations well. The ATV riders didn't lose anything in those units.

Page 4 Idaho hunting regulations paragraph 4:

"A person will be considered actively hunting if they have a valid hunting license and tag and are chasing, driving, flushing, attracting, pursuing, seeking, following, trailing, shooting at, stalking, or lying in wait for and wildlife while in possession of a hunting weapon. The rule does not affect persons not actively hunting or hunters staying on established roads. "

Read the next paragraph too.

Edit to correct spelling errors in quoted section.

[ 05-16-2003 11:40: Message edited by: Ten Bears ]

Hangar18 · May 16, 2003

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Colorado Oak:
C'mon, surely you can do better than that. That's like saying crime rates are so high in big cities because there is too many laws to enforce.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

New laws don't replace old laws, they add to the pile making more laws. More laws to break means more enforcement is needed. That statement came from the EIS, I just commented on it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ithaca 37:
Please just pick an issue and educate us.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did. You pulled one thing from my original post. My point was the BRC is not advocating misuse, as you have alledged. They advocate public land is for everyone, not a select few that want it all to themselves.

"Clark Collins, executive director and founder of Blue Ribbon Coalition, a motorized recreation advocacy group, said people who get ticketed get no sympathy from him.

"We strongly support strict enforcement of the laws and regulations," Collins said. "We have no sympathy for violators." He said a few violators do not make a valid argument that all snowmobilers should be banned."

That article is one of the most biased pieces of shit I have ever read. The writer must have worked for the LA Times previously. Quoting the Bluewater network, the Natural Resources Defense Council & the National Parks Conservation Association for so-called information is like asking Sara Brady how to clean a Sig.

Education will work.

Ithaca 37 · May 16, 2003

Hanger, "the BRC is affiliated with the Wise Use Movement. Where did you find this information?"

Just do a search for "blue ribbon coalition wise use movement" and take a look!

http://www.google.com/search?q=blue+ribbon+coalition+wise+use+movement&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&start=30&sa=N

"BRC was an original sponsor of the 1988 Reno Wise Use Leadership Conference which advocated, among other things, "Immediate wise development of the petroleum resources of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge," "Creation of National Mining System" under which "all public lands including wilderness and national parks shall be open to mineral and energy production under wise use technologies," and "passage of the Global Warming Prevention Act to convert in a systematic manner all decaying and oxygen producing, carbon dioxide-absorbing trees to help ameliorate the rate of global warming." (25 Point Wise Use Agenda, 1988)
Contributes a regular column to Off-Road.com, which represents the interests of motorized recreation through a web site and e-mail news list, the Land Use Network. Off-Road.com consistently refers to environmentalists as "eco-freaks," "Nazis," "communists," and "eco-nuts." The Land Use Network is tied to "Wise Use" groups through overlapping membership and interests, some with extreme anti-environmental messages and agendas, such as the Sahara Club, which has advocated violence and exhibited extreme disrespect towards environmentalists. (Particularly Sahara Club newsletter #35)
Several board members are active in the Wise Use/Property Rights movement, including Grant Gerber, an Elko Nevada Attorney who most recently defended " The Jarbidge Shovel Brigade", a group of land use activists who protested the closing of a forest service road by illegally digging out the boulders blocking access to the road. Also worth mentioning is Del Albright of the Land Use Network."

http://www.clearproject.org/reports_br.html

Check out this affiliate!

http://www.cdfe.org/defenders.htm

Blue Ribbon Coalition (BRC)

The Blue Ribbon Coalition is partially funded by Japanese manufacturers of off-road vehicles. The organization was cofounded by snowmobiler and anti-wilderness activist Darryl Harris and trail biker Clark Collins.

Three full-time employees manage the coalition's annual operating budget of $180,000. Board members are: Kay Lloyd, co-chairman, International Snowmobile Council; Craig Cazier, president, Utah State Snowmobile Association; and Joe Wernex, a Washington State logging engineer and amateur trail designer. Individuals pay dues of $20 to belong to the coalition; groups pay $100. But at least as much money--roughly $85,000 a year--is provided by grants from the mining and timber industries and especially from ORV manufacturers.

Major contributors of the 1989 Convention were: American Honda Motor Company, Yamaha Motor Company, Suzuki Motor Corporation, ARCTCO, Bombardier Corporation, Polaris Industries, and Kawasaki Motor Corporation.

The Blue Ribbon Coalition is credited with the Wise Use Movement's major federal legislative achievement to date, lobbying successfully to add $30 million to the 1991 Highway Bill for the construction of off-road vehicle trails.

"Environmentalists are still trying to figure out how they got KOed on the trails act, but it wasn't a lucky punch," says a report in Harrowsmith Country Life.

Mike Francis of the Wilderness Society said of Clark Collins: "I have to give Collins a lot of credit. The guy is good. As flaky as he seems, he is one hell of a tactician. He got Steve Symms to make the trails amendment his number one project on the highway bill. The trails act is a flea on the rear end of an elephant when you compare it to the regular highway bill. Everyone wanted Symms' support for something else. With the exception of Howard Metzenbaum, our best environmentalists on the Senate Energy Committee weren't willing to take on Symms. They all took a walk. Symms and Collins played that thing beautifully."

The Blue Ribbon Coalition has boasted about "organizing support" for: 1. logging road construction by the Forest Service; 2. oil exploration in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge; 3. protection of the Mining Act; and 4. continuation of the present grazing formula.

Clark Collins travels extensively addressing local and national groups on the need to work together and form a strong network.

http://www.ewg.org/pub/home/clear/by_clear/Fifty_VI.html

Here's a good article:

http://www.radio4all.org/anarchy/fake8.html

Hanger, maybe you don't know what the BRC is up to! I can't be wasting any more time on this. Please educate yourself.

[ 05-16-2003 14:32: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]

Ithaca 37 · May 16, 2003

Ten, "how many have I started,"

Whatsa matter, can't you count? In the last 100 days you started 7 topics and there are a total of 28 posts in them ( a four post per topic average). You are a miserable failure as a topic starter!

Now, why don't you tell me how many I started and what the average # of posts is.

If we relied on you and your loser buddy MD4m to keep things goin' around here we'd be in big trouble.

[ 05-16-2003 14:56: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]

Moosie · May 16, 2003

HELL.. I've only started one and it has 34 posts in it and will go probably the biggest one in here

Hangar18 · May 16, 2003

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ithaca 37:
Hanger, maybe you don't know what the BRC is up to! I can't be wasting any more time on this. Please educate yourself.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you for wasting your time. Thank you especially for the link to the Center for the Defense of Free Enterprise. You still haven't proved the BRC is a bad thing.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>This list
Originally posted by Ithaca 37 04-18-2003:

The BRC is affiliated with the Wise Use Movement, as are:Movements and groups:
CHRISTIAN IDENTITY
ARYAN NATIONS
SCRIPTURES FOR AMERICA
JUBILEE
THE ORDER
KU KLUX KLAN
CHRISTIAN PATRIOTS
POLICE AGAINST THE NEW WORLD ORDER
S.P.I.K.E.
STATE CITIZENSHIP SOVEREIGNTY
CHRISTIAN RIGHT
FREE MILITIA OF WISCONSIN
U.S. TAXPAYERS PARTY
GUN OWNERS OF AMERICA
CHRISTIAN RE-CONSTRUCTIONISTS
OPERATION RESCUE
RESCUE AMERICA
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the list I was talking about. Where is your documentation that the BRC is currently affiliated with those on this list?

And why did you include Gun Owners of America in this list? You have a problem with Larry Pratt defending the Second Amendment? Don't answer this until you answer my first question.

The other information you posted is widely known and easy to find.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"BRC was an original sponsor of the 1988 Reno Wise Use Leadership Conference..." "Major contributors of the 1989 Convention were..."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are posting information that is 14 years out of date? LMFAO!!! If this is an attempt to portray a bad thing, remember Al Gore used to vote in favor of gun owners. You seem to have a problem with the Second Amendment.

Ten Bears · May 16, 2003

Yes, yes IT, we all know how great you think you are.

Remember though, you are the one who comes here to educate people. Are you certified for that or just certifiable?

I post topics that I think are of interest, and not to start debates. What was your response to the CAP number being used for ATV violation complaints?

Oh, I'm sorry, it idin't involve you did it?

Answer Hangars questions, since you seldom have an answer for mine.

Hangar18 · May 16, 2003

Never mind Ithaca, I found it.

TURNING THE TIDE: Journal of Anti-Racist Activism, Research and Education
Volume 8 Number 3, Fall (September-November) 1995 ISSN 1082-6491

REACTIONARY FORCES LINK UP IN MILITIAS
The currents that coalesced into the militia movement arose from three principal sources, the openly racist, anti-semitic Christian Identity movement, the conspiratorialist, paranoid Christian Patriot movement, which incorporates a tacitly white supremacist ideology of "Constitutionalism", and the theocratic, repressive anti-gay and anti- woman Christian Reconstructionist and Christian Right forces. To these fascist elements were added a more mass base drawn from "wise use" anti-environmental forces and Second Amendment groups opposed to gun control. Shortly after the Ruby Ridge stand-off between the FBI and white supremacist Randy Weaver, a meeting convened in Estes Park Colorado by Christian Identity "pastor" Pete Peters drew more than 150 participants, mostly from the racist right. At this gathering, Christian Reconstructionist Larry Pratt proposed the formation of militias as a direct action armed formation to defend gun rights, based on the model of armed Christian evangelical forces that had fought insurgencies in the Philippines and Guatemala. Pratt enjoyed solid connections and credentials with the mainstream Reagan right, and heads up both Gun Owners of America (to the right of the NRA) and English First (an anti- immigrant group to the right of US English). His militia proposal carried the day, and shortly thereafter, in the wake of the Clinton election, the Brady Bill and the Waco tragedy, the militias took off as a national phenomenon.

Movements and groups:
CHRISTIAN IDENTITY
ARYAN NATIONS
SCRIPTURES FOR AMERICA
JUBILEE
THE ORDER
KU KLUX KLAN
CHRISTIAN PATRIOTS
POLICE AGAINST THE NEW WORLD ORDER
S.P.I.K.E.
STATE CITIZENSHIP SOVEREIGNTY
CHRISTIAN RIGHT
FREE MILITIA OF WISCONSIN
U.S. TAXPAYERS PARTY
GUN OWNERS OF AMERICA
CHRISTIAN RE-CONSTRUCTIONISTS
OPERATION RESCUE
RESCUE AMERICA

KEY INDIVIDUALS:
John Trochmann
Pete Peters
"Bo" Gritz
Larry Pratt
Ron Arnold
Joe Fields
Gen. John Singlaub

REACTIONARY FORCES LINK UP IN MILITIAS

Wise Use Movement - Any organized deemed by environmentalists to be against their cause. Please correct me if this definition needs modification.

From the passage above -
To these fascist elements were added a more mass base drawn from "wise use" anti-environmental forces...

No where do I find the BRC being drawn from from the Wise Use Movement and added to these fascist elements.

As for Larry Pratt
Larry Pratt has been Executive Director of Gun Owners of America for 27 years. GOA is a national membership organization of 300,000 Americans dedicated to promoting their second amendment freedom to keep and bear arms.

GOA lobbies for the pro-gun position in Washington and is involved in firearm issues in the states. GOA's work includes providing legal assistance to those involved in lawsuits with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, the federal firearms law enforcement agency.

Pratt has appeared on numerous national radio and TV programs such as NBC's Today Show, CBS' Good Morning America, CNN's Crossfire and Larry King Live, Fox's Hannity & Colmes and many others. He has debated Congressmen James Traficant, Jr. (D-OH), Charles Rangel (D-NY), Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY), Senator Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ), and Vice President Al Gore, among others. His columns have appeared in newspapers across the country.

He published a book, Armed People Victorious, in 1990 and was editor of a book, Safeguarding Liberty: The Constitution & Militias, 1995. His latest book, On the Firing Line: Essays in the Defense of Liberty was published in 2001.

Pratt has held elective office in the state legislature of Virginia, serving in the House of Delegates. Pratt directs a number of other public interest organizations and serves as the Vice-Chairman of the American Institute for Cancer Research.

Source for above

The first link says
"Former adviser to the Reagan and Bush administrations on Latin America, Pratt is a bridge between the old right, the Christian reconstructionist, and racist, neo-nazi forces. His book, "Armed People Victorious" details the use of reactionary militias in Guatemala and the Philippines to enhance the repressive reach of the army and the state."

Pro-gun, pro-militia = racist, neo-nazi according to them.

This is a reach as far as Larry Pratt goes, and provides no information or verifiable link to the BRC.

edit - formatting

[ 05-16-2003 17:57: Message edited by: HANGAR 18 ]

Ithaca 37 · May 16, 2003

Hanger, "And why did you include Gun Owners of America in this list?"

You think I made up that list?

Some of the info at those sites is 14 years old, some is only two or three years old. Clark Collins, who I first met about 1985 when he was getting started, hasn't changed.

Face it, you're associating with a bunch of looney tunes.

Hangar18 · May 16, 2003

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ithaca 37:
Face it, you're associating with a bunch of looney tunes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never said you made up the list. Classic. You didn't prove sh!t. The link is in name only. Where does it say the entire Wise Use Movement was drawn in??? Where does it say the BRC was drawn in?

WELCOME HANGER....

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