Virginia Gun Rights Rally

[VikingsGuy]

I'll play devils advocate here since you seem to know everything...

If the government doesn't solve issues, who will? You? The rich? The poor?

Private insurance doesn't want to cover your abc disease, who's going to fight for your right to live? You? Now hospitals will only take you in if you have insurance or cash up front, what are you going to do?

You seem to hate the government, butI bet you use it in one way shape or form everyday.

The real reality is that most of you will get less care under nationalized health care than under your current insurance. Other countries save money by metering out healthcare. In Canada, if you have non-emergency surgery, including sever pain problems, you may have to wait until next fiscal year to get the procedure - and then only if your's is more urgent than the next person's. Maybe our sense of fairness requires that the 90% that have world class health care have to have less care so that we can pay for the other 10%, but let's be very honest about that is what we are talking about. Also, let's remember that in most service industries (like health care) employee costs are the biggest driver. So when you hear someone saying the government will lower the costs of health care it means there will be fewer doctors, nurses, pharmacists than before and those that remain will be paid less. And where will all the laid off health care workers, medical supply/equipment manufacturers, insurance company workers and big pharma employees get new jobs? It would be good to figure that out before we blow up an entire industry basis political vote mongering.

 

[SD_Prairie_Goat]

The real reality is that most of you will get less care under nationalized health care than under your current insurance. Other countries save money by metering out healthcare. In Canada, if you have non-emergency surgery, including sever pain problems, you may have to wait until next fiscal year to get the procedure - and then only if your's is more urgent than the next person's. Maybe our sense of fairness requires that the 90% that have world class health care have to have less care so that we can pay for the other 10%, but let's be very honest about that is what we are talking about. Also, let's remember that in most service industries (like health care) employee costs are the biggest driver. So when you hear someone saying the government will lower the costs of health care it means there will be fewer doctors, nurses, pharmacists than before and those that remain will be paid less. And where will all the laid off health care workers, medical supply/equipment manufacturers, insurance company workers and big pharma employees get new jobs? It would be good to figure that out before we blow up an entire industry basis political vote mongering.

I'm not disagreeing with any of that, but I was more pointing out that government isn't the worst like people make it out to. Regulation are necessary imo. That's more what I was getting at

 

[VikingsGuy]

I'm not disagreeing with any of that, but I was more pointing out that government isn't the worst like people make it out to. Regulation are necessary imo. That's more what I was getting at

A balance of govt and market is important indeed - despite my childhood wishes to the contrary, there is simply no libertarian utopia to save us - the human condition is too complex. Similarly, many tyrants/statists on the left and right have also shown that the government can't not solve everything either. But finding a balance is sadly not what people in 2020 want to hear.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

No, it's a discussion about taking what I earn and giving it to someone else regardless of how you try to frame it. ignoring the cost and where that money comes from is a common theme when these issues are raised.

Everyone wants to do good. I get that. How do you personally do good? You claim to care for the disadvantaged, is it just words or actions?

#77 and #79
I think that you end up getting to keep more of your money in the long run if you teach a man to fish instead of giving him one.

I’m simply suggesting improving system to make it easier for people to improve their own communities. The conversation about free college education is pretty much the same as the one about free public primary education that occurred a hundred years ago, it just seems jarring because of the current paradigm.

 

[SD_Prairie_Goat]

A balanced of govt and market is important indeed - despite my childhood wishes to the contrary, there is simply no libertarian utopia to save us - the human condition is too complex. Similarly, many tyrants/statists on the left and right have also shown that the government can't not solve everything either. But finding a balance is sadly not what people in 2020 want to hear.

Haha, funny, but I too used to very libertarian until I saw what people do when left unchecked.

People are too divided these days for balance.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Haha, funny, but I too used to very libertarian until I saw what people do when left unchecked.

People are too divided these days for balance.

I agree, but if this remains true over time then there will be little chance of actual solutions. I will hope you and I are both wrong.

 

[MTGomer]

The real reality is that most of you will get less care under nationalized health care than under your current insurance. Other countries save money by metering out healthcare. In Canada, if you have non-emergency surgery, including sever pain problems, you may have to wait until next fiscal year to get the procedure - and then only if your's is more urgent than the next person's. Maybe our sense of fairness requires that the 90% that have world class health care have to have less care so that we can pay for the other 10%, but let's be very honest about that is what we are talking about. Also, let's remember that in most service industries (like health care) employee costs are the biggest driver. So when you hear someone saying the government will lower the costs of health care it means there will be fewer doctors, nurses, pharmacists than before and those that remain will be paid less. And where will all the laid off health care workers, medical supply/equipment manufacturers, insurance company workers and big pharma employees get new jobs? It would be good to figure that out before we blow up an entire industry basis political vote mongering.

I asked a Canadian friend this weekend about their healthcare system while at breakfast.
They went on and on with specific, first hand examples of care rationing, delays in treatment etc.

These particular people are well off, and have the ability to travel to private healthcare in the US and pay out of pocket. Most people, including some that they were talking about having their care denied or delayed aren’t that fortunate.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

@VikingsGuy So we all agree that we should build bridges so that everyone can use them. They are a public asset, there is no need to make a profit off of them.

How does the delta created by this profit fit into your narrative?

I would argue in a fully realized sense the largest cost isn’t the personnel it’s the profit margin.

My reservations echo your own, but I’m curious you views in this part of the conversation.

 

[zach_destroys]

I'll play devils advocate here since you seem to know everything...

If the government doesn't solve issues, who will? You? The rich? The poor?

Private insurance doesn't want to cover your abc disease, who's going to fight for your right to live? You? Now hospitals will only take you in if you have insurance or cash up front, what are you going to do?

You seem to hate the government, butI bet you use it in one way shape or form everyday.

I dont know everything, shit most days I wonder if I know much of anything. And I dont hate the government, I hate the inflated, worthless, wasteful federal government. Their answer to everything is to take control of personal or states rights and turn it into something bloated and over-reaching. What helps some, harms another. I cant see government healthcare being a worthwhile thing at all, take a look at the VA. That's a federally ran healthcare system and I know for a fact not many vets would recommend it. I think you would be surprised at what a true freemarket healthcare system would look like, where there is a demand the free market will provide, its business.
I believe, as many of the framers of the constitution did, that government is a necessary evil. But rules were put in place to keep it at bay, of course over time people forget, get lazy and want someone else to take all the responsibility which puts us where we are today.

 

[Addicting]

I dont know everything, shit most days I wonder if I know much of anything. And I dont hate the government, I hate the inflated, worthless, wasteful federal government. Their answer to everything is to take control of personal or states rights and turn it into something bloated and over-reaching. What helps some, harms another. I cant see government healthcare being a worthwhile thing at all, take a look at the VA. That's a federally ran healthcare system and I know for a fact not many vets would recommend it. I think you would be surprised at what a true freemarket healthcare system would look like, where there is a demand the free market will provide, its business.
I believe, as many of the framers of the constitution did, that government is a necessary evil. But rules were put in place to keep it at bay, of course over time people forget, get lazy and want someone else to take all the responsibility which puts us where we are today.

Are you a Vet, have you used the VA? I have and I definitely don’t share your view on it.

I’m not advocating for Gov health care. But the VA’s I have been to have providers who care and got me and my Soldiers fixed up quickly.

 

[zach_destroys]

Are you a Vet, have you used the VA? I have and I definitely don’t share your view on it.

I’m not advocating for Gov health care. But the VA’s I have been to have providers who care and got me and my Soldiers fixed up quickly.

Yes to both. I've very glad that's the experience you had, a lot of my friends have not.

 

[Doublecluck]

Stupid people, smart people, black white and brown people, rich people, poor people, many races, many religions, both man and woman. 20-30,000 of them, many armed, and there was 1 arrest. Sounds like a successful demonstration to me. In fact, I’m not sure there is single issue in the current political climate you could find a more diverse group of people aligned for a common interest.

interesting comments.

 

[VikingsGuy]

@VikingsGuy So we all agree that we should build bridges so that everyone can use them. They are a public asset, there is no need to make a profit off of them.

How does the delta created by this profit fit into your narrative?

I would argue in a fully realized sense the largest cost isn’t the personnel it’s the profit margin.

My reservations echo your own, but I’m curious you views in this part of the conversation.

Are you suggesting that the healthcare industry has 51+% profits? Not even close. Plus "profit" isn't magic or eviil, most of it gets re-invested into care improvements (new drugs, treatments etc) if that doesn't come from "profits" it would presumably come from government funds - history shows that market pressures do better than govt. direction to drive innovation and cost down over time. A relatively small portion gets paid out by dividend to shareholders which enriches the government tax receipts and turns into money for pensions and re-investment. If you are anti wall street profit then you are anti-public pension systems as they are some of the biggest investors - so if there is no more profit, then I guess more taxes to pay the pension short falls. Not sure how academy was able to turn half the country against "evil profit", but either private individuals invest by "profit motive" i.e., those things that will work, or investment is by government fiat - I prefer the former and so does most of history.

 

[Addicting]

Yes to both. I've very glad that's the experience you had, a lot of my friends have not.

So you agree that it is NOT a fact that most Vets would not recommend it. Your speaking for all of us and making assumptions from a statistical non existent pool of friends. In Fact in recent press releases the VA is doing quite well with its customer base.

VA.gov | Veterans Affairs

Apply for and manage the VA benefits and services you’ve earned as a Veteran, Servicemember, or family member—like health care, disability, education, and more.

www.va.gov

VA.gov | Veterans Affairs

Apply for and manage the VA benefits and services you’ve earned as a Veteran, Servicemember, or family member—like health care, disability, education, and more.

www.va.gov

So if your going to make those assumptions without doing any homework. Why should anyone on here put any faith in what your saying.

 

[Irrelevant]

Are you suggesting that the healthcare industry has 51+% profits? Not even close. Plus "profit" isn't magic or eviil, most of it gets re-invested into care improvements (new drugs, treatments etc) if that doesn't come from "profits" it would presumably come from government funds - history shows that market pressures do better than govt. direction to drive innovation and cost down over time. A relatively small portion gets paid out by dividend to shareholders which enriches the government tax receipts and turns into money for pensions and re-investment. If you are anti wall street profit then you are anti-public pension systems as they are some of the biggest investors - so if there is no more profit, then I guess more taxes to pay the pension short falls. Not sure how academy was able to turn half the country against "evil profit", but either private individuals invest by "profit motive" i.e., those things that will work or invest is by government fiat - I prefer the former and so does most of history.

Everyone supports private health insurance until they get hosed by it.

Having just about watched a child birth drive my sister to bankruptcy I would strongly disagree. Only a very small fraction of the health care industry provides care, the vast majority are in the business of sucking every ounce of money they can for the care.

If you haven't had a bad experience then good for you. But if you live the middle class our current health care system couldn't be worse. Especially if you're a small business owner.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Everyone supports private health insurance until they get hosed by it.

Having just about watched a child birth drive my sister to bankruptcy I would strongly disagree. Only a very small fraction of the health care industry provides care, the vast majority are in the business of sucking every ounce of money they can for the care.

Sorry to hear of your experience, but that is not even close to being the actual truth of the broader industry.

 

[Irrelevant]

Sorry to hear of your experience, but that is not even close to being the actual truth of the broader industry.

Again I disagree. I can't think of a single experience were I thought anything about the system was about care. It's all about money.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

But if you live the middle class our current health care system couldn't be worse. Especially if you're a small business owner.

My experience as well. I have had markedly better experience with european system, though you can't really compare the system of a county of a few million people to that of the US.

 

[Bigjay73]

The idea that everyone needs a 4 year degree ignores the reality of what community colleges & vocational colleges offer.

But an associate's degree produces well rounded individuals who can quote Emerson while welding a fine head.

 

[Bigjay73]

My condolences to the people of the great state of Virginia, your Governor is an asshat. What exactly was de-escalated?