Utah BLM
- Thread starter HighDesertSage
- Start date
This deal is going to come to a head, sooner or later. Sooner, being better than later.
Not sure what it is about rules and process that some folks don't understand. If you don't like the rules, then be involved in the process. I suspect if you went and reviewed comments to that BLM travel management plan for the area, hardly any of those on their ATV riders provided any comment.
If you don't like the laws in place, that generate the court decisions, that influence the rule making process, that results in outcomes you don't like, then get people elected who will work to change the laws. If the laws get changed, the court decisions will change, and the rule making process to implement the law will change.
But, most people don't want to involve themselves in the process of laws and elections. They find it easier to bitch and moan once the process has left them behind, and by doing that, make themselves nothing more than pawns used by hacks who see them and their cause as assets for political advancement. Once these folks get their teeth handed to them due to sitting around doing nothing at the time action was needed, they round up some media, invite some loud mouths who are willing to use them and their cause for a small political gain, and then do something like this.
Put a camera in their face and they will tell you they are here protesting to get back to a Constitutional form of government. Yet, when the time was ripe for them to exercise their Constitution-provided rights of elections and voting, or to use the Constitution-provided courts in the same manner their opponents have, they sat on their butts.
Hard to feel sorry for people who are not involved in process and then complain about what happened while they were not paying attention.
Cracks me up that people think that state control will result in peace and harmony on land policy decisions. Imagine the outcome if Nevada got control of the Federal land and the big urban areas of Vegas and Reno have all the political sway. Those Vegas/Reno polticians would sell that land in a hurry, and the new owners are not going to let the Bundy-types, the Elko Country Commissioners, and other supposed Constitutionalists squat on their newly acquired, and now privately held, lands. These new owners will run Bundy and his ilk off the land, making claims of their rights under the 5th Amendment of the Constitution. Then, it will be the county sheriff's doing the evictions, not the BLM. And even then, we will have some of the same militia dumbasses threatening county sheriffs who the courts instruct to implement the Constitution.
These people might want to think about the outcome if Colorado got control of Federal land and what happens when the Front Range population controls the debate on the topic. The same place that is getting pretty comfortable with increased gun restrictions and other political issues that I suspect the Constitutionalist don't like. Always good to be careful of what one might wish for.
If that ever happens, these same people will be bitching about the outcomes of state control, as they are still in the minority. Then, they will want the counties to take control of the lands from the state, because now the state is the enemy, rather than "The Feds." And when the counties are not doing what they want, then ..........
Not that I've ever had much sympathy for people who don't involve themselves in elections or exercising their Constitutional rights of the courts, but when it comes to this movement, I have no sympathy, rather disgust for the hypocrisy of it all.
Not sure what it is about rules and process that some folks don't understand. If you don't like the rules, then be involved in the process. I suspect if you went and reviewed comments to that BLM travel management plan for the area, hardly any of those on their ATV riders provided any comment.
If you don't like the laws in place, that generate the court decisions, that influence the rule making process, that results in outcomes you don't like, then get people elected who will work to change the laws. If the laws get changed, the court decisions will change, and the rule making process to implement the law will change.
But, most people don't want to involve themselves in the process of laws and elections. They find it easier to bitch and moan once the process has left them behind, and by doing that, make themselves nothing more than pawns used by hacks who see them and their cause as assets for political advancement. Once these folks get their teeth handed to them due to sitting around doing nothing at the time action was needed, they round up some media, invite some loud mouths who are willing to use them and their cause for a small political gain, and then do something like this.
Put a camera in their face and they will tell you they are here protesting to get back to a Constitutional form of government. Yet, when the time was ripe for them to exercise their Constitution-provided rights of elections and voting, or to use the Constitution-provided courts in the same manner their opponents have, they sat on their butts.
Hard to feel sorry for people who are not involved in process and then complain about what happened while they were not paying attention.
Cracks me up that people think that state control will result in peace and harmony on land policy decisions. Imagine the outcome if Nevada got control of the Federal land and the big urban areas of Vegas and Reno have all the political sway. Those Vegas/Reno polticians would sell that land in a hurry, and the new owners are not going to let the Bundy-types, the Elko Country Commissioners, and other supposed Constitutionalists squat on their newly acquired, and now privately held, lands. These new owners will run Bundy and his ilk off the land, making claims of their rights under the 5th Amendment of the Constitution. Then, it will be the county sheriff's doing the evictions, not the BLM. And even then, we will have some of the same militia dumbasses threatening county sheriffs who the courts instruct to implement the Constitution.
These people might want to think about the outcome if Colorado got control of Federal land and what happens when the Front Range population controls the debate on the topic. The same place that is getting pretty comfortable with increased gun restrictions and other political issues that I suspect the Constitutionalist don't like. Always good to be careful of what one might wish for.
If that ever happens, these same people will be bitching about the outcomes of state control, as they are still in the minority. Then, they will want the counties to take control of the lands from the state, because now the state is the enemy, rather than "The Feds." And when the counties are not doing what they want, then ..........
Not that I've ever had much sympathy for people who don't involve themselves in elections or exercising their Constitutional rights of the courts, but when it comes to this movement, I have no sympathy, rather disgust for the hypocrisy of it all.
shoots-straight
Well-known member
The puppeteers are playing these dopes. Their not smart enough to figure it out. This sort of corporate game has been working for a very long time.
elkantlers
Well-known member
This "Protest" was scheduled long before the Bundy incident.
The Recapture canyon trail was open one day and closed the next by the BLM. This trail has been used by people for a long time. It was a main travel route from Bluff to Monticello before Blanding was even a town. This trail need to be reopened and they County commission has tried to get that to happen. The protest ride is in part because of the lack of progress on addressing this trail closure.
The Recapture canyon trail was open one day and closed the next by the BLM. This trail has been used by people for a long time. It was a main travel route from Bluff to Monticello before Blanding was even a town. This trail need to be reopened and they County commission has tried to get that to happen. The protest ride is in part because of the lack of progress on addressing this trail closure.
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
The trail was not closed. Hike or horseback was/is allowed. 'Sorry you cannot now motor your hotrod through it legally.
When vandals motor in on their obese behinds and destroy valuable artifacts and archaeological treasured areas, then I fully support making it more difficult for them to do their damage. As usual, it's a small group of idiots whose actions cause this type of restriction.
But if you want the trail open to motorized, then approach the issue in a lawfully accepted way. If your cause reflects the predominant and prevalent democratic wishes, then you will be successful. If not, then ignoring signs and unlawfully entering is surely to bring you nothing but trouble.
When vandals motor in on their obese behinds and destroy valuable artifacts and archaeological treasured areas, then I fully support making it more difficult for them to do their damage. As usual, it's a small group of idiots whose actions cause this type of restriction.
But if you want the trail open to motorized, then approach the issue in a lawfully accepted way. If your cause reflects the predominant and prevalent democratic wishes, then you will be successful. If not, then ignoring signs and unlawfully entering is surely to bring you nothing but trouble.
Just to be Mr. Obvious aren't all closures open the day before they are closed? Are you saying there was no NEPA completed and no public involvement?
I think that's the case. I think they did an emergency closure due to potential archaeological damage being done. I think the complaint is that the NEPA process has dragged on for 7 years now. And I agree with Spitz.
Began in 2006:
https://www.blm.gov/ut/enbb/list_project.php?page=4
https://www.blm.gov/ut/enbb/list_project.php?page=4
Well-said Randy.
Federal ownership is the key to keeping land "public." In Oregon when the Oregon Dept. of Forestry gets involved all they see is dollar signs and half of what was once public state forest in N. W. Oregon is now behind private gates and has been logged to the point that Roosevelt elk, which were once numerous, are so scarce I quit hunting. What is still open to the public has been cris-crossed with ATV/OHV trails that keep the few remaining elk constantly harassed.
But, before you vote for one guy or the other better listen to what they are saying. It wasn't the only reason, and despite the mess some people envision now, when I heard Mitt Romney say he would put the Federal Government out of the land business I had no problem voting for the other guy, and I had no problem walking into the Forest Service office where I worked and saying right out loud that "if Mitt Romney gets elected you can kiss your Forest Service job goodbye". We still have our public land, we still have our guns, and I still have my Forest Service job, and I'm thankful for all of it, and if I could be proud of anything it would be that I'm a Mormon who didn't vote for Mitt Romney.
Federal ownership is the key to keeping land "public." In Oregon when the Oregon Dept. of Forestry gets involved all they see is dollar signs and half of what was once public state forest in N. W. Oregon is now behind private gates and has been logged to the point that Roosevelt elk, which were once numerous, are so scarce I quit hunting. What is still open to the public has been cris-crossed with ATV/OHV trails that keep the few remaining elk constantly harassed.
But, before you vote for one guy or the other better listen to what they are saying. It wasn't the only reason, and despite the mess some people envision now, when I heard Mitt Romney say he would put the Federal Government out of the land business I had no problem voting for the other guy, and I had no problem walking into the Forest Service office where I worked and saying right out loud that "if Mitt Romney gets elected you can kiss your Forest Service job goodbye". We still have our public land, we still have our guns, and I still have my Forest Service job, and I'm thankful for all of it, and if I could be proud of anything it would be that I'm a Mormon who didn't vote for Mitt Romney.
sagebrush
Active member
This federal versus state control is a crappy situation. Its the devil you know versus the devil you don't. I've seen the fed's in action in AZ where they take public comment 90% against their proposals, close the comment period and then do just what they planned from the outset, without regard for the public comment. I would hope that locals would be involved in the use plans for their local resources. Since there is no local control, we can only speculate on the outcome. Local authorities are much easier to hold accountable and a state level recall has been an effective tool. Try that on the federal level.
The artifacts in Recapture Canyon have been there for hundreds of years with no restriction on travel. A couple of bad actors allegedly cause some level of disturbance, and the all knowing fed's close the access to all motorized vehicles. Bad actors can't travel by foot or horseback? Its BS. The BLM hippies want to restrict access to only those wearing Birkenstocks and the anti-ATV crowd jumps to their support. Its just an excuse to further their agenda.
I am totally against the mindset that says every problem, no matter how minor, can be solved by more and greater regulation and central control. "Government isn't the solution to our problem, government is the problem".
The artifacts in Recapture Canyon have been there for hundreds of years with no restriction on travel. A couple of bad actors allegedly cause some level of disturbance, and the all knowing fed's close the access to all motorized vehicles. Bad actors can't travel by foot or horseback? Its BS. The BLM hippies want to restrict access to only those wearing Birkenstocks and the anti-ATV crowd jumps to their support. Its just an excuse to further their agenda.
I am totally against the mindset that says every problem, no matter how minor, can be solved by more and greater regulation and central control. "Government isn't the solution to our problem, government is the problem".
katqanna
Well-known member
Guess he's got himself well shielded, kids in front and back.
For me, this irks on two fronts, not just the public lands issues, but some of my archaeology research, prior to diving into the elk brucellosis issues, was partly of the ancient Puebloan cultures, what some derogatorily call the Anasazi (attacking Navajo term for ancient enemies). The Hisatsinom (puebloan for ancient ancestors) inhabited the Four Corners areas before the Dene (Apache, Navajo) migrations south or the Utes.
People used to think Native American petroglyphs were just art, but a white man, orphaned in Utah when he was very young, adopted by the Utes, learned their language (including sign) and was taught the oral history of the Hisatsinom before the Utes arrived. He received cryptography training in the military. Combining that with his love of the Utah petroglyphs, saw a pattern. It wasnt just artwork, it was a writing system based on oral and sign language. He wrote a book about it : The Rocks Begin To Speak - Lavan Martineau. He busted wide open petroglyph research and Native American writings systems. This area has great cultural value and is home to one of the largest northwestern kivas.
For me, this irks on two fronts, not just the public lands issues, but some of my archaeology research, prior to diving into the elk brucellosis issues, was partly of the ancient Puebloan cultures, what some derogatorily call the Anasazi (attacking Navajo term for ancient enemies). The Hisatsinom (puebloan for ancient ancestors) inhabited the Four Corners areas before the Dene (Apache, Navajo) migrations south or the Utes.
People used to think Native American petroglyphs were just art, but a white man, orphaned in Utah when he was very young, adopted by the Utes, learned their language (including sign) and was taught the oral history of the Hisatsinom before the Utes arrived. He received cryptography training in the military. Combining that with his love of the Utah petroglyphs, saw a pattern. It wasnt just artwork, it was a writing system based on oral and sign language. He wrote a book about it : The Rocks Begin To Speak - Lavan Martineau. He busted wide open petroglyph research and Native American writings systems. This area has great cultural value and is home to one of the largest northwestern kivas.
Musket Man
New member
Well said! The feds keep taking things little by little and eventually everything will be closed.
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
Balderdash! ... to put it mildly.
Musket Man
New member
Just look at all the areas that have been closed and they are trying to close, ranchers that have lost their grazing permits, forests that they stopped logging, new national monuments, new areas they are trying to turn into wilderness, ect
This rally was planned by the county commissioner and also had the support of the sheriff. 2 people went off the road in 2007 so they close it to everyone. What kind of sense does that make? Thats like saying 2 people killed an elk illegally in the Bighorn mountains so we are going to close hunting on all the forest service land in the Bighorn mountains.
This rally was planned by the county commissioner and also had the support of the sheriff. 2 people went off the road in 2007 so they close it to everyone. What kind of sense does that make? Thats like saying 2 people killed an elk illegally in the Bighorn mountains so we are going to close hunting on all the forest service land in the Bighorn mountains.
shoots-straight
Well-known member
Musket, you've bought into the extremist rhetoric.
What areas are "closed"?
Many believe that there was over use of grazing permits across the west. Some areas just aren't too good for that purpose.
Some areas need more grazing. That's a small portion though.
The lack of logging in Montana wasn't due to a shift in forest service use, but rather decades of over logging and market influences. It cost more to get the logs to mill than they were worth.
Mills mechanized to the point that we could no longer feed the monster. It starved to death.
As I understand it the ATV road into that land in Utah was illegally built 7 years ago.
What areas are "closed"?
Many believe that there was over use of grazing permits across the west. Some areas just aren't too good for that purpose.
Some areas need more grazing. That's a small portion though.
The lack of logging in Montana wasn't due to a shift in forest service use, but rather decades of over logging and market influences. It cost more to get the logs to mill than they were worth.
Mills mechanized to the point that we could no longer feed the monster. It starved to death.
As I understand it the ATV road into that land in Utah was illegally built 7 years ago.
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spook12
New member
Quick question. If the elk in the Bighorns were taking a beating,would you want those whose job it is to manage them to take some action to relieve the pressure.
I'll take more wilderness & monuments please. That means better hunting & better habitat in the long run.
Also, according to the BLM, that motorized trail was created illegally and therefore it rightly should be closed. Good for the BLM.
http://www.hcn.org/wotr/recapture-canyon-and-an-illegal-atv-trail/print_view
jryoung
Well-known member
What part of every wildlife study related to habitat that says motorized access is bad for elk and deer don't you understand?
In a nutshell....
http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/wildlife/planElk.pdf
elkantlers
Well-known member
I have a problem with this statement! Why is every person who rides and ATV labeled a fat slob? Why is it OK for someone to ride a horse compared to someone riding an ATV? They are both riding something that is making it easier on themselves. I wonder how many "horsemen" would walk that canyon on their own two feet.
I have nothing against either group. I have ATV's that I use responsibly and I have used horses plenty of times. Honestly I feel as lazy riding either.
I have seen people on horses gathering shed antlers in a motorized restricted area chasing the bulls trying to get them to drop an antler. (Yes I did turn them in)
In my opinion if there is any kind of travel restriction then it should be for everything except people on foot.
