Houndsmen should be pretty effective at removing bears. Like all hunting there will be hound guys shooting everything in the tree. Typically more experienced hound hunters would prefer to let some animals free but take out some older age class boars. Someplaces we hunt we shoot a lot more bears because the population is extremely high in other areas not so much because seems like not as many. You can be a lot more selective with hounds than spot and stalk where sometimes it’s “crap there’s a bear shoot it ! “ type scenario. Hounds will not be the silver bullet of all bear management. Like anything it will have its advantages but it will pose some problems and have some disadvantages. The best benefit will be just another tool for Montana to use to manage a predator and that will help out the deer and elk in the long run. There’s certain areas Idaho that spot and stalk is not very effective just way too thick but hounds are a good option. It’s not a perfect or superior method it’s just another approach or method and that alone will help management.
Spring Bears With Hounds Proposed
- Thread starter 520 Road Sow
- Start date
Schaaf
Well-known member
That doesn't really say anything other than some hound hunters kill a lot of bears and some don't.
The supporters of this bill, and some on this thread, are the ones that have a problem with talking out of both sides of their mouth.
The supporters of this bill, and some on this thread, are the ones that have a problem with talking out of both sides of their mouth.
Point Creep
Well-known member
This is definitely something that creates more opportunity. I guess a 2 month spring and 2 month fall season, which in most places has no quota, isn't enough. This will certainly result in more bears being killed, and WAY more bears being killed by people who otherwise would never notch a tag (guided hunters who need all the help they can get). I can only think it will greatly suck for guys who enjoy a peaceful night out glassing for bears in the spring.
KB_
Well-known member
to play devils advocate: a side effect could be that grizzlies could develop some type of fear of humans with this going on. Maybe not, could have a opposite effect but just a thought.
Wes Mantooth
Well-known member
"Montana House Bill 468, which will open hound hunting for black bears and allow the pursuit of black bears with dogs during a training season, has passed the Senate by a vote of 28-22. House Bill 468 now moves on to the Governor’s desk after previously passing the House of Representatives by a 60-38 vote."
The proponents of the bill keep talking about how it could "improve management" of bears in MT, but where are the details around how the current method is deficient? Harvest numbers show on average approx. 1,400 bears annually are taken in MT.
The cons seem to outweigh the pros and it seems geared towards outfitters/guides and another season of paying clients...
And personally, I agree with others who only know spring bear hunting in MT as spot and stalk, and value it for exactly that. We don't "need" hounds to successfully take and manage bears versus mountain lions where without hounds, the harvest rate would be astronomically low.
The proponents of the bill keep talking about how it could "improve management" of bears in MT, but where are the details around how the current method is deficient? Harvest numbers show on average approx. 1,400 bears annually are taken in MT.
The cons seem to outweigh the pros and it seems geared towards outfitters/guides and another season of paying clients...
And personally, I agree with others who only know spring bear hunting in MT as spot and stalk, and value it for exactly that. We don't "need" hounds to successfully take and manage bears versus mountain lions where without hounds, the harvest rate would be astronomically low.
El Jason
Well-known member
Highly unlikely.
I spot and stalk for bears in Idaho and can’t remember ever being run over by hounds while out glassing for bears. Sure there are places I could go and run into lots of hounds but I don’t go there to spot and stalk. If you hike away from road systems in remote an more rugged terrain you shouldn’t see hear or smell a dog. I understand the concern for bear hunters that haven’t had hounds allowed but I can almost guarantee it won’t be the crap show some might be envisioning. I will Most likely never run hounds for bears in Montana but I’m excited to see hunting opportunities actually expanding for a change. Hounds are usually the first thing to go in western states. California , Washington, Oregon etc. I just want that heritage saved for future generations that choose to do it. At this point I’m hoping my 18 year old son starts taking over on our hounds so I can just go out recreational when I feel like it
I’m out on this one but I feel like most will be pleasantly surprised that hounds don’t effect there spot and stalk hunting much. There will be some conflicts with the bad apples there always is but I believe it will be minimal.I can see where you’re coming from. I was trying to say it’s another tool that can be used to manage predators. There’s certain areas hounds are a lot more effective than spot and stalk that’s all. Other places hounds aren’t more effective and there’s places I wouldn’t even let my hounds off the leash. Doesn’t matter who kills what. Montana has another tool to manage bears that will help your elk calves if used right. This rule won’t effect me much I’m just really excited to see them add hunting opportunities. Hound hunters felt like a dying breed with all the states dropping it. There’s value in preserving some of our heritage even if you don’t personally do it
HighWildFree
Well-known member
Studies have shown the lions are a much more efficient predator of elk than bears. Houndsman have been pretty poor at keeping lion numbers in check, not to mention for every extra bear killed that's less competition for wolves/lions.
Predator management is very complex in a system like MT with multiple apex predators. Hound hunters aren't going to have a measurable effect on elk calf recruitment. If that was really their goal they wouldn't fight every attempt to increase lion quotas.
If it's about opportunity fine, but this isn't a management strategy.
BuzzH
Well-known member
You keep forgetting...you aren't allowed to have nice things in Montana.
Kill what's left.
Point Creep
Well-known member
As long as there’s a buck to be made or we can simplify hunting for all, how can that not be nice?
rogerthat
Well-known member
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You need to move to Montana. I've lived here 40 years and I haven't seen anything but opportunities expand. It's not as great as you think unless you like crappy hunting getting crappier.
The point that's being missed here is that the conflict with other species is likely to be high. Especially grizzly bears if they allow hound hunting in the spring in R's 1-4. Then you have dogs out possibly harassing pregnant & calving elk & deer dropping fawns, as well as other species that are dealing with young, including wolves who will rip a pack apart.
Management is more than killing one critter to benefit the other. In fact, that's the antithesis of management. I'd be fine with hounds in some of the island ranges where grizzlies aren't, but once you get west of I15 & south of 90, you're asking for trouble.
Increased incidental take of grizzly bears will set back delisting efforts, along with other dumb bills passed this session. I think most folks who are opposed to this bill (now law) are not against hound hunting in any aspect, just against a bad bill that will have unintended consequences & a management philosophy that the only good carnivore is a dead one.
rogerthat
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Bottom line its a step in the wrong direction...again. This state doesn't need anymore opportunity(except maybe more hunters on private). Definitely nothing against hound hunters but we already have enough "opportunity" in this state. Its ridiculous at this point and I don't even hunt bears.
I moved to Idaho from Montana still have lots of family we deer and elk hunt with in Montana every year and the hunting is still pretty dang good where we hunt. If you don’t like Montana hunting I would recommend trying out some other western state my guess is you will be more than happy with what Montana provides
I just watched from a distance what other western more liberal states have done and it’s a disaster. They have gone overboard protecting predators and they always start by eliminating some form of hound hunting. I guess a lot of Montana people on here disagree with me that’s ok. I love Montana always will and really the people of Montana are the ones that need to decide this. for me it’s great to see a state actually ADD hound hunting when the antis are getting it reduced and eliminated elsewhere. Just my 2 cents having been in Idaho for almost 30 years which has always had hounds I think a lot of people are imagining a much worse scenario than what is reality. My guess is most spot and stalk bear hunters that don’t road hunt won’t notice much differenceI agree approaching “management”with the philosophy of killing all predators is a bad thing. I don’t see how allowing some hound hunting means they want all predators dead. We hound hunt around wolves all the time and packs aren’t ripping our dogs apart. I have never lost a dog to a wolf but have had some sketchy situations. A hound hunter has to make decisions for his dogs that is his job the dogs will do their job but we need to not release them into dangerous situations. Sometimes you just have to pass a giant lion track when you see fresh wolf tracks nearby etc etc. I have had friends release unintentionally on grizzly and they all got there dogs back it’s not a great day but it can be dealt with. I get the feeling many on here think hound hunting is some kind of free for all where people just dump 20 dogs into the mountains and they rape and pillage everything in a drainage. It’s NOT at all like that. If dogs strike while bear hunting we usually investigate the area see what kind of tracks are there. Most hound hunters know a grizzly track and dogs won’t just be dumped out if they bark. We always let 1 max 2 very seasoned dogs go first and what they do can tell you a lot. I’m not saying a hound or any dog won’t chase a deer or elk but hound hunters spend hours upon hours breaking dogs off that. If I can’t get my dog to walk by deer and elk without even looking I get rid of that dog. I don’t disagree totally with most people on here it just seems like some don’t understand how most hound hunting goes. It will not be the free for all crap show I think some are anticipating. There will be a few idiots with dogs but that’s true of any hunting. Hope you all have a great season
I wanted to add Idaho has a few units with grizzlies closed but many of our open hound bear units HAVE grizzlies there’s not much difference between Idaho and Montana woods besides a line on a map. Idaho has been hounding around wolves and grizzlies foreverI agree approaching “management”with the philosophy of killing all predators is a bad thing. I don’t see how allowing some hound hunting means they want all predators dead. We hound hunt around wolves all the time and packs aren’t ripping our dogs apart. I have never lost a dog to a wolf but have had some sketchy situations. A hound hunter has to make decisions for his dogs that is his job the dogs will do their job but we need to not release them into dangerous situations. Sometimes you just have to pass a giant lion track when you see fresh wolf tracks nearby etc etc. I have had friends release unintentionally on grizzly and they all got there dogs back it’s not a great day but it can be dealt with. I get the feeling many on here think hound hunting is some kind of free for all where people just dump 20 dogs into the mountains and they rape and pillage everything in a drainage. It’s NOT at all like that. If dogs strike while bear hunting we usually investigate the area see what kind of tracks are there. Most hound hunters know a grizzly track and dogs won’t just be dumped out if they bark. We always let 1 max 2 very seasoned dogs go first and what they do can tell you a lot. I’m not saying a hound or any dog won’t chase a deer or elk but hound hunters spend hours upon hours breaking dogs off that. If I can’t get my dog to walk by deer and elk without even looking I get rid of that dog. I don’t disagree totally with most people on here it just seems like some don’t understand how most hound hunting goes. It will not be the free for all crap show I think some are anticipating. There will be a few idiots with dogs but that’s true of any hunting. Hope you all have a great season
MTLabrador
Well-known member
Just curious which units are closed to hounds because of grizzlies? I’m sure the Island Park area is, but anything else? While I’m admittedly not very familiar with Idaho, Montana has a lot more grizzlies in a lot more of the state. Not really an apples to apples comparison.
Idaho doesn't have the grizzly bear densities that the Crown does. Or the north side of Yellowstone.
Great post, thanks for educating me!
