South East Montana - Custer National Forest

[BigHornRam]

Thanks, BHR, for more of your alternative truth and fake news. Likely you will follow with a far-fetched conclusion regarding the ESA, the USFWS, or USFS ... with a caveat blaming grizzlies for the national debt. We will stay tuned.

That was a joke moron.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Really? Classy reply.

 

[BigHornRam]

Really? Classy reply.

90% here catch my drift. The other 10%....... Here's your sign.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Thank-you very much for the clarification, BHR. Your rudeness is exceeded only by inability to recognize others' humor.

 

[JohnCushman]

*puff puff pass* :W:

 

[Straight Arrow]

*puff puff pass*

Roger; Out.

 

[Zach]

It's a nice thought, but hunters will never self-regulate. And I'm not sure they should. It's the responsibility of the game agency to manage the wildlife, not the responsibility of hunters to leave tags unpunched because the agency won't manage.

Seems the perception is most agencies are doing the management with budget in mind vs. the wildlife?

 

[JohnCushman]

Seems the perception is most agencies are doing the management with budget in mind vs. the wildlife?

It's just like the OTC elk tags in CO. They are a cash cow and they will sell the hell out of them because people will keep buying them.

 

[Oak]

Seems the perception is most agencies are doing the management with budget in mind vs. the wildlife?

And your point?

 

[Zach]

And your point?

Do the agencies really care about the wildlife or have they been sucked into the big gubment machine. MT is being accused of depleting the elk herd for the sake of revenue, at least that is what I perceive to be the case.

At a field level, yeah you can see the bio's care. But lets face it, most of the agencies are part of the a department of REVENUE.

 

[Oak]

MT is being accused of depleting the elk herd for the sake of revenue, at least that is what I perceive to be the case.

I believe MT FWP is being accused of depleting the elk herd at the behest of landowners.

 

[Zach]

Guess I read the posts differently. Maybe that's what I get for multitasking while driving my desk this week.

Perhaps I'll get a fresh perspective next week while I'm in Eastern WA.

 

[JEL]

I hunted SE Montana a lot in the 90's when I lived in Billings. The deer hunting was great. Elk were just starting to move into the areas I hunted. I went back last fall and spent a couple weeks. The deer hunting wasn't great but it wasn't crowed where I was at (public land away from roads). I did seem some decent deer but saw more elk. My own observation from the last 30 years of hunting the bear paws to the breaks to SE MT is that when the elk move in the mule deer numbers diminish.

 

[Doublecluck]

A lot of the posts on this thread are laughable. The keyboard biologists were out in force here. Seems like no matter which state I go in to, whichever forum you go on, whatever refuge you hunt there is always a group of guys who are self proclaimed intellects, way more intelligent than the biologists and elected/appointed officials who manage the game and make the decisions. Are there political motivations that play in to the decisions they make, of course. Are they at war with the wildlife they manage and hell bent on having hunters kill them all, unlikely, that don't seem like a sustainable management plan for fwp.
More likely the populations are affected by changing habitat conditions, weather, new farming practices, disease, etc. There is always some old timer who talks about the good old days, how it used to be, but that is only relative to their life, their experience in that environment at that time. How was the deer hunting in Montana in say 1900 before there was vast farmland and deer were hunted year round for food?

Are the deer and more so deer hunting opportunities in SE MT being affected by unlimited tags, hunting show publicity, and long seasons, sure they are, but only to the extent they will move in to refuge areas faster, stay away from roads, and get farther from people. So yes the times are changing, you won't be able to shoot a good 4 point from your truck while sippin on a bud light like your grandpappy did back in 1960 when only 12 people lived in the county. But let's keep things in perspective, the area we are talking about just produced a world record elk for one person, for him I would guess these are the good old days.

 

[BuzzH]

Quackllr,

Be a smart ass all you want about the keyboard biologists.

Just keep in mind that the FWP has done nothing to change the seasons in Montana since 1954, other than adding a day at the start of the season (used to start on Sunday), adding days when kids can hunt deer earlier, and extending shoulder seasons into August and February. Nothing has changed in Montana since 1954, that would compel the MTFWP to make changes in how they manage wildife? Is that what you're saying? The world has changed around the FWP and they haven't...and yes, that is unsustainable.

Also, check out some of the FWP elk data. I would hate to have to defend that kind of data in court...laughable, as a best case. Still trying to figure out how you kill 53 bulls out of herd that they claim only has 45 bulls in it to start with?

Ask the guys in the 'root about John Vore and how he and the FWP "managed elk" down there.

Ask me how the FWP managed to destroy whitetail hunting in the blackfoot, by allowing every single hunter in the State to buy 2 OTC doe permits, apply for a 3rd, and also allow a 4th on your A-tag. You have to really work at destroying whitetail hunting, yet they pulled it off in 3 years. Its not habitat, its not the weather that caused it, its 100% a lack of management. BTW, I had extensive conversations with the biologists for the area, the last 2 actually, and they agreed...purely mismanagement on their part.

If they're doing such a good job, why are 200 cow permits gone from the area I hunt, when only a few years ago, they allowed at least 2 or 3 years of open cow hunting for anyone with a general tag for 7 days? In an area that is UNDER or barely at objective?

These things are the work of an agency that cares about managing wildlife?

Hardly, and I can point out dozens and dozens of similar things that the FWP can not defend, in areas all across the State.

You need to put the listening ears on when guys like Greenhorn and others that have been hunting Montana for a long time try to explain what's going on. Its grim, very grim.

 

[teamhoyt]

I believe MT FWP is being accused of depleting the elk herd at the behest of landowners.

^yes

 

[teamhoyt]

Quackkillr, if biologists where actually the ones managing the wildlife we would be a whole lot better off.

Also are you saying that elected and appointed officials are smart and/or biologists? To me that's laughable.

 

[mtmuley]

I witnessed the Vore years in the Root. Not pretty. mtmuley

 

[Doublecluck]

Quackllr,

Be a smart ass all you want about the keyboard biologists.

Just keep in mind that the FWP has done nothing to change the seasons in Montana since 1954, other than adding a day at the start of the season (used to start on Sunday), adding days when kids can hunt deer earlier, and extending shoulder seasons into August and February. Nothing has changed in Montana since 1954, that would compel the MTFWP to make changes in how they manage wildife? Is that what you're saying? The world has changed around the FWP and they haven't...and yes, that is unsustainable.

Also, check out some of the FWP elk data. I would hate to have to defend that kind of data in court...laughable, as a best case. Still trying to figure out how you kill 53 bulls out of herd that they claim only has 45 bulls in it to start with?

Ask the guys in the 'root about John Vore and how he and the FWP "managed elk" down there.

Ask me how the FWP managed to destroy whitetail hunting in the blackfoot, by allowing every single hunter in the State to buy 2 OTC doe permits, apply for a 3rd, and also allow a 4th on your A-tag. You have to really work at destroying whitetail hunting, yet they pulled it off in 3 years. Its not habitat, its not the weather that caused it, its 100% a lack of management. BTW, I had extensive conversations with the biologists for the area, the last 2 actually, and they agreed...purely mismanagement on their part.

If they're doing such a good job, why are 200 cow permits gone from the area I hunt, when only a few years ago, they allowed at least 2 or 3 years of open cow hunting for anyone with a general tag for 7 days? In an area that is UNDER or barely at objective?

These things are the work of an agency that cares about managing wildlife?

Hardly, and I can point out dozens and dozens of similar things that the FWP can not defend, in areas all across the State.

You need to put the listening ears on when guys like Greenhorn and others that have been hunting Montana for a long time try to explain what's going on. Its grim, very grim.

Ok I am listening, can you point me to some long term population data that supports your argument?

And I am not saying fwp is doing a good job, I am saying they are doing what many state game agencies do. Create management plans that take in to account the interests of everyone as well as the game.

 

[bobbydean]

I have no horse in this race. But, do not question Buzz. He will hand you your ass.. Been there and never again.

Knows his facts and is not polite in explaining it to you.

Good luck!