Something smells fishy about Montana Elk Hunt..

[Gerald Martin]

Originally posted by Jose

Gerald,

You can justify poaching however you want. You can make excuses for poachers who shoot wolves, or "shoot an extra doe, but eat all the meat", or fill the tag they bought for their wife "because they paid for it", or stick an arrow in a 370 bull 3 days after the season closes and then post it on the internet.

You're right I could make excuses for poachers who shoot an extra doe etc.... but I don't recall ever doing that in anything I posted. Your "wolf shooter = meat poacher= poacher who shoots on someone elses tag= poacher who kills trophy animals" argument reminds me of the mentality of another group that says "a rat is a dog is a pig is a boy" Sorry Jose, poaching might be defined that way on the books but many hunters in communities affected by wolf predation won't see it that way.

 

[belly-deep]

Wolf murder, Although I am not as extreme as Jose, You have to admit he's right. I'm neither a wolf lover or hater but I see it all the time. "Wolves are killers". (YAh, really? so are yotes and lions and bears)...... They'll eat you up, they hunt you down.....

I'm not saying I'm above shooting a wolf and making up a story.... but anyone thats not a Dumb a$$ retard can see these boys had a hate for a wolf and probably weren't threatened any more then I was last week packing out an elk with Wolves howling.

I think there is one important difference between wolves and lions or bears, and that is the fact that there are multiple animals in a wolf attack. I know that I don't personally want to find out the answer to this, but I do believe that if you waited until the wolves actually came into bite you, you'd be a dead man. Maybe I'm wrong. Time will tell, I'm guessing. But it is a whole different kettle of fish when you compare the threat posed by one predator, in the case of a bear or lion, to a half dozen of them in the case of a wolf.

I'm not saying that you should shoot any wolf that appears in front of you to fend off an attack, nor am I saying that those guys were 100% justified in their actions. But I don't think people should be expected to wait until a wolf is slobbering on the end of their gun barrel before they kill on in self defense. If you do wait that long, then two or three more will probably be slobbering down the back of your shirt a milisecond later and you'll end up as wolf scat.

I'm curious too as to whether the people who are on the wolf side of this issue believe that a wolf wouldn't attack a human? It hasn't happened yet with this recent reintroduction, but I promise it will. Every other wild animal we have has become emboldened and attacked someone, including prey animals that are not known for aggressiveness, and I don't see any reason why a wolf won't one of these days.

Moosie, I would say if wolves are knowingly approaching a human, then there is more danger there than if you just hear them howling a distance off. I think animal behavior indicates such. They remove problem bears if they become too bold around humans, same with lions, because history has shown that wild animals that lose their natural fear of humans are more likley to attack. I don't think a wolf is any different.

 

[Wolf Murder]

[I've seen wolves, hear them all the time when out hunting, and had them run by us as well. I know they do put the hurt to the game. But packing sidearms and scared to death ? No way.

Moosie - Not being sarcastic here, but really? Had wolves "run" by you? A little different than 6-10 wolves circling your kill and spooking the horses. Yes, these guys were a little dramatic in their story telling - much like any of us would if it happened to us.

Some people are PU$$IES and your buddies that have the "wolf fear" in the article are just that. They had no middle ground on wolves. Read the story, Jose bolds the negative statements. They obviously hated them more then anything. I think they took the oppertunity to kill a wolf and then make up a good story... probably even believing most of it. Maybe even all of it.

There is one crucial difference between these "Pu$$ies" and myself: I would have stayed (Completely unafraid) and picked off as many of those damn wolves as I could have - and then I wouldn't have told a soul". Call me a poacher, call me late for dinner, whatever. I'm fed up with the situation, as are many others I know and we will take the opportunity to kill as many wolves as possible. 1,500 wolves (Rough population) my a$$! There are way more than that and they are decimating our game herds. Now that the bunny-strokers (Queervo) have gotten them back on the ESL, it will only get worse. I know when we could hunt them we didn't even reach our quota. If you care about the game then you should be concerned about the problem. Whether or not you want to risk killing them is up to you, but I know myself and many, many others will kill every opportunity we get

..................BOOOOOOO !!!! AHHHHhhhhhhhh, a wolf !!!! *INSERT ROLL EYES*[/QUOTE]

Now that's just some funny stuff right there

Belly-Deep - there was a wolf attack that killed a human not more than a year ago I believe up in Canada. Some biologist or something.

 

[shoots-straight]

[I've seen wolves, hear them all the time when out hunting, and had them run by us as well. I know they do put the hurt to the game. But packing sidearms and scared to death ? No way.

Moosie - Not being sarcastic here, but really? Had wolves "run" by you? A little different than 6-10 wolves circling your kill and spooking the horses. Yes, these guys were a little dramatic in their story telling - much like any of us would if it happened to us.

Some people are PU$$IES and your buddies that have the "wolf fear" in the article are just that. They had no middle ground on wolves. Read the story, Jose bolds the negative statements. They obviously hated them more then anything. I think they took the oppertunity to kill a wolf and then make up a good story... probably even believing most of it. Maybe even all of it.

There is one crucial difference between these "Pu$$ies" and myself: I would have stayed (Completely unafraid) and picked off as many of those damn wolves as I could have - and then I wouldn't have told a soul". Call me a poacher, call me late for dinner, whatever. I'm fed up with the situation, as are many others I know and we will take the opportunity to kill as many wolves as possible. 1,500 wolves (Rough population) my a$$! There are way more than that and they are decimating our game herds. Now that the bunny-strokers (Queervo) have gotten them back on the ESL, it will only get worse. I know when we could hunt them we didn't even reach our quota. If you care about the game then you should be concerned about the problem. Whether or not you want to risk killing them is up to you, but I know myself and many, many others will kill every opportunity we get

..................BOOOOOOO !!!! AHHHHhhhhhhhh, a wolf !!!! *INSERT ROLL EYES*

Wolf, I have no problem with you firing away at the wolves you see. If caught you man up and pay the piper without whining. What I do have a problem with is BS. Your location on top of the page says your from Montana. If so, then your statement about "US" not even filling out our quota's BS. We did, and then the state killed another 145 or better on predation hunts. Hell in the Big Hole Valley alone they killed 72. If wolves ever attack someone will remain a scare tactic from the far right wing politicians in this fight. It might or might not happen, but one thing's for sure, it will be used every time a man and a wolf are close together. Stick with true facts, things that have happened, and I'll give you more credit. Stay away from the little Red Ridding hood stories.

My biggest problem with your rhetoric, and that of your peers is the perception to the rest of the world that your one of us, a"Sportsman". I just wish you'd go about your business and keep your mouth shut doing so.

Moose man, that post of yours is one of the best I've ever seen you write. Kudos to you.

 

[Moosie]

There are hundreds and maybe thousands of counts of brown and black bear attacks..... yet non on wolves yet. So the whole "The pack will get you" is still a Yeti tale to me. Maybe I'll be the first someday to get chomped on with my easy attitude, we'll see.

As far as my definition of poaching, I personally would never turn anyone one I knew or heard of that shot a "Big Coyote" or a "Long Tail Bear".... if I thought someone shot one or even if I knew for a fact that someone did . Right, wrong or indifferent.

On a side note, I also wouldn't turn in someone that shoots a doe for food. I know that is also not the "popular" answer but I don't care about popular, if you don't like my answers you can bite me I do draw my own line in the sand as I'm sure a jury would when they hear the case. Whether I think this way or not, I do think (With the little info posted) that the guys are exaggerating just a "little" in their story and agree it's a bit "fishy".

 

[Sytes]

Moose man, that post of yours is one of the best I've ever seen you write. Kudos to you.

I didn't know he wrote more than 3 lines on average... POST WHORE! j/k.

I disagree completely with his view though... as I stated before, had these guys really been (PAST TENSE) wolf haters beyond the normal dislike for this unmanaged predator... There would be more than 1 darn wolf dead. Common sense guys...

I certainly understand if these two gents are NOW an escalated version of a dis-satisfied Montanans towards the wolves... and rightfully so... (as the current information relays.)

Oops, hopefully I didn't upset Moosie's running backs/wide receivers... Would hate to oppose such fantastic armchair QB'ing... :W:

Ehhh, BOOOYA! Back at ya Biotch!

 

[JoseCuervo]

In MT you are not required to pack the meat before the horns, and if a predator claims your critter while you are gone you are not advised to try and reclaim it. These guys did not break any wanton waste laws.

Thankfully, a few people around are still thinking practically, including the game warden. Most hunters, if they had horses, would wack the head off and come back the next day for the rest of the meat with their stock. That is not an unusual method in any part of the West. That part of their conduct is not even in question.

How do you NOT question their conduct when they lost an entire FRIGGIN elk??? It was THIER actions and conduct that lost them an elk.

Somehow, THEY were in an area with wolves, grizzlies, and coyotes and killed an elk, left all the meat on the ground, hauled out the antlers, returned the next day and sat around eating lunch until some game animals finally stumbled upon 400lbs of meat laying near a gut pile.

And then they lost the meat, but want to blame the wolves on their irresponsible behaviour?

What could they have done??? Perhaps hang all the quarters in the "heavy timber"???? Perhaps pack out a front quarter on their way back to the rig, leaving behind the antlers???? Perhaps pack meat all night long (as they shot the elk on a road, just had to hike a road in the dark)???? Perhaps load the elk up on the horses when they got there and been back to town in less time than it takes the drama queen to set up his jetboil????

Any of the above would have resulted in SOME of the elk being salvaged. By doing NONE of the above, they lost an entire elk. Not a single one of those suggestions is unreasonable, I have done all of them at one time or another, but only because I was PREPARED.

But, hey, at least they got the antlers out.....

 

[JoseCuervo]

Is anyone keeping track of "Classic" Hunt Talk threads, because this one is getting there fast.

Not even close, unless I missed the post where somebody who dresses up like an Imaginary Chef from 1861 has threatened to drive 2000 miles to kick my ass.....

 

[tjones]

This whole thing could be as simple as this. We know 2 things happened, a elk died and a wolf died at the hands of our two heros. The boys shot the elk, packed out the horns and left the elk on the ground.
Something I have done many times and have never lost any meat. Now I don't hunt the grizzly and wolf infested country these boys are in, so leaving it on the ground prolly wasn't the smartest choice.

They go back in the next day and see wolves eating on the elk, pissed off, hero number one blazes a wolf. Now the boys panic as they have told people they killed an elk and the general area the elk died in. Now if a dead wolf shows up near a dead elk body it does not take much to put 2 and 3 together. They boys come up with a fabulous tale, hold their news conference and play on the wolf hatred that is boiling in most of Montana. Things usually happen a lot simpler then the tale that follows. This is just me guess at how it went down, and I will bet my version is closer then the story they told.

There is no way to tell if the wolves were following them or if the horse had fire eyes. The wolf tracks are there and the horse tracks are there, who was following who,,well only our 2 boys really know.

Murder, if you kill an elk and then wolf bodies show up dead near your elk kill site do think you can get away with it? Someone sees your rig parked, or you packing out the elk, then stumbles across the wolf bodies,,,,well you will then need a story like these boys.

[There are way more than that and they are decimating our game herds. Now that the bunny-strokers (Queervo) have gotten them back on the ESL, it will only get worse. I know when we could hunt them we didn't even reach our quota. If you care about the game then you should be concerned about the problem.

Actually last year when Montana had a season we did reach our quota of 74 dead wolves. As far as decimating our elk herds, the Montana legislature and FWP has done more damage to elk numbers then the wolves will ever do. The low objective numbers FWP picked and the legislature mandating FWP to be on or below those low objective numbers lead to liberal leason and excessive harvest. The majority of hunting districts are still above elk objective numbers set in the Montana elk management plan and FWP is still trying to reduce elk populations in those HD's.

Don't get me wrong, wolves need to be managed, but the blame needs to be put where it belongs and it lies with the Montana Legislature. Over harvest by hunters, allowed by FWP because of the Montana Legislature is a bigger problem.

Gerald, remember a Montana warden won't be the one "throwing the book" at a wolf shooter, there will be a Federal investigator, a Federal prosecutor and a Federal judge, all well up the food chain of a Montana warden.

 

[JoseCuervo]

As for myself, I definitely don't see myself as a wolf hater and I'm definitely not a poacher. I don't even know if I'd shoot a wolf. I know the only time I've had an opportunity to shoot a wolf I took a picture instead. But I do not like the fact that wolves are having an adverse effect on the game numbers in our area. I also don't like the fact that we have too many hunters impacting the game numbers, as well as a couple hard winters several seasons ago.


That's been my attitude for a couple of years about the way some wolf haters have acted but I have to admit my attitude has changed a bit when I find wolf tracks and year old elk skulls that are 3/4 eaten in places that are winter range for the elk. And when people who spend a lot more time in the woods than myself can't find many elk it makes a fellow start looking for some answers. Somethings got to give and since I can't control the weather and I'm not allowed to shoot other hunters I really get upset when we aren't allowed to manage the other major factor in the decline of game. I think I speak for a lot of local hunters when my first impulse after hearing about a "poached" wolf is to cheer rather than turn the "poacher" in.

Then why not blame/address the problem that is the fact the Welfare Ranchers in Wyoming's legislature cost Idaho and Montana the ability to have hunting seasons and manage the wolves. Go read some of Judge Malloy's decisions. You can be as "fed-up" as you want, but as long as you have a bunch of Welfare Ranchers in Wyoming in the legislature, you will have a bunch of wolves in Montana and Idaho.

And if you really want to laugh at something, read up on Gov. Butchie's new plan for "managing" wolves in Idaho... The clueless governor has decided Idaho won't "manage" any more wolf activities, no more "biology", no more data...... and then he is threatening to sue the Feds....... WITHOUT any data or means to collect data. For some reason Governor I.W. Illsuethefeds seems to think you can sue, without any data, the people who have ALL the data.....

Don't blame the wolves for the failures of Wyoming's Welfare Ranchers.

 

[WV Hunter]

They go back in the next day and see wolves eating on the elk, pissed off, hero number one blazes a wolf. Now the boys panic as they have told people they killed an elk and the general area the elk died in. Now if a dead wolf shows up near a dead elk body it does not take much to put 2 and 3 together. They boys come up with a fabulous tale, hold their news conference and play on the wolf hatred that is boiling in most of Montana. Things usually happen a lot simpler then the tale that follows. This is just me guess at how it went down, and I will bet my version is closer then the story they told.

Great minds and all that.........

 

[JoseCuervo]

They go back in the next day and see wolves eating on the elk, pissed off, hero number one blazes a wolf. Now the boys panic as they have told people they killed an elk and the general area the elk died in. Now if a dead wolf shows up near a dead elk body it does not take much to put 2 and 3 together. They boys come up with a fabulous tale, hold their news conference and play on the wolf hatred that is boiling in most of Montana. Things usually happen a lot simpler then the tale that follows. This is just me guess at how it went down, and I will bet my version is closer then the story they told.

There is no way to tell if the wolves were following them or if the horse had fire eyes. The wolf tracks are there and the horse tracks are there, who was following who,,well only our 2 boys really know.

Murder, if you kill an elk and then wolf bodies show up dead near your elk kill site do think you can get away with it? Someone sees your rig parked, or you packing out the elk, then stumbles across the wolf bodies,,,,well you will then need a story like these boys.

.

tJones,

Minor correction, but the wolves were NOT eating on the elk. The wolves were nowhere near the elk when the drama queen and his date returned to BrokeBack Mountain and set up their picnic blanket and JetBoil for their lunchdate.

But, the rest of your sequence of events does not "smell fishy" and is pretty believable. I would also suggest that perhaps the location of the tag might be of interest. If it was left on the meat pile or was carried out...

 

[fowladdict]

Another time ...... Hell, I can tell you stories about lions, bears, Wolves and rabbid rabbits all night, but, I can not tell you a story where someone got attacked by a wolf. Not one.

Hmm according to Saveourelk.com wolves like to chase little kids being pulled on a sled behind a quad. Man that site is something. They also mention a teacher that was killed by a pack of wolves...I seem to remember that being true, but not completely sure.

 

[Wolf Murder]

Murder, if you kill an elk and then wolf bodies show up dead near your elk kill site do think you can get away with it? Someone sees your rig parked, or you packing out the elk, then stumbles across the wolf bodies,,,,well you will then need a story like these boys.

Good point "T" - It would be tough if someone saw you hauling out elk. Depends on how remote the country is I guess.

Actually last year when Montana had a season we did reach our quota of 74 dead wolves. As far as decimating our elk herds, the Montana legislature and FWP has done more damage to elk numbers then the wolves will ever do. The low objective numbers FWP picked and the legislature mandating FWP to be on or below those low objective numbers lead to liberal leason and excessive harvest. The majority of hunting districts are still above elk objective numbers set in the Montana elk management plan and FWP is still trying to reduce elk populations in those HD's.

Quota in 2009 was 75, with 72 killed. http://billingsgazette.com/news/sta...cle_ebeb462e-d332-11de-a394-001cc4c03286.html


Don't get me wrong, wolves need to be managed, but the blame needs to be put where it belongs and it lies with the Montana Legislature. Over harvest by hunters, allowed by FWP because of the Montana Legislature is a bigger problem.

I agree with you here that it is PART of the problem, but wolves really put a dent in the populations. Enough so that they are now attacking livestock. Something needs to be done and soon.
QUOTE]

 

[Sytes]

For those fabricating a story beyond the actual info... any reliable sources / info to refute to info as provided by the Warden and the men?

I suppose once the USFWS finalize their investigation... I believe we will have a decent picture of the situation and if it turns out they are not charged for killing an ES wolf, hopefully those throwing out these fictional additions will move to support your fellow hunter (30 years of hunting)... as if this was a neighbor or friend... or heck, maybe yourself...

To get back to the facts... This was a SOLO hunter who went on a day hunt / hike and found himself successful with a nice bull. He packed out what was practical and often solo packed first... evening setting solo... he calls his friend who brings out his horses to assist in packing the rest of the 3-400 lbs
the next morning and arrive early afternoon... they eat after their ride and prep the meat further for packing it out... wolves surround and the event as they describe occurred.

You want to talk about hanging meat... or whatever, sure... hind sight 20/20. The guy found he hit gold... maybe forgot to bring rope... maybe hunting this area many times and not having the type of UNMANAGED wolf issue that has excelled... hit a reality point on this successful hunt... and lesson learned... Bah, who knows - knowing the events of this incident... sure any Arm chair Quarterback can CALL "He should have..." all they want... Hind sight 20/20. SHould a solo hunter EVER hunt solo? what about safety... if one broke a leg and came close to dieing... people here may suggest "No one should hunt solo..." Bah - "what if" this to death... though come on guys... You are a hunter... we are hunters... how about supporting your fellow seasoned hunter UNLESS adverse investigation reveals something other than the info as provided.
Sure, he should not hunt solo... I should not hunt solo... He should have hung his meat... I should always hang my meat... Griz area or not... Black bears are present... mountain lions are present... coyotes are present... for ANYONE who has left elk on the ground to return later - are you not being a model hunter by not hanging meat ALL THE TIME??? Are you recklessly leaving meat to be ravaged by other wildlife because YOU are too lazy to hang your meat??? No. it is using your past experience of the area... it is using the setting to define your actions... evening hit... you planned on a day hunt - though BOOM - there you are face to face with a great bull... DO YOU PASS UP to be a model sportsmanlike hunter because you know the night is an hour away... and if you do shoot you have a few hours of work ahead of you??? Maybe you will pass on a bull... I'll shoot and do the best I am able with my current surroundings. Whether that is hang the meat or leave it on the ground and follow that old wise tale of pissing everywhere possible around the elk. (Like that really helps... - though I do it... haha!)

What I am getting at is... hind sight is always 20/20... anyone can "what if" something to death... Though if this was a fellow hunter you personally knew... I DOUBT you would go to such extremes of adding fictional content. SUPPORT YOUR FELLOW VETERAN HUNTER of 30 years... as YOU would want to be supported...

As for the comments regarding humans should not fear a pack of wolves... I offer this... though, as we know - those who want to believe what they want - most likely will NOT watch these news clips. OR if they do - they will offer fictional additions to these incidents as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQgXT-KOJvY&feature=player_embedded This is an event of two... TWO wolves stalking to attack a father and his two children sledding... Thankfully their dog (a rot) pretty much saved this family from a distraught future.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSzEcfILITs&feature=player_embedded Jogging 3 women... surrounded by 7 wolves...

 

[Moosie]

FYI.... when you end a quote, Use [/quote] ... to start a quote use [quote} ... (But use a ] instead of a } like I did

It will look like this for the final Product :

Look, I now know how to make a quote and use it !!

It won't end like your last post :

soon.
QUOTE] jsut add the [/quote]

: at the end instead of a nice quote. (fact)


....Lesson was free this time Amigo !!!

 

[Wolf Murder]

Wolf, I have no problem with you firing away at the wolves you see. If caught you man up and pay the piper without whining. What I do have a problem with is BS. Your location on top of the page says your from Montana. If so, then your statement about "US" not even filling out our quota's BS. We did, and then the state killed another 145 or better on predation hunts. Hell in the Big Hole Valley alone they killed 72. If wolves ever attack someone will remain a scare tactic from the far right wing politicians in this fight. It might or might not happen, but one thing's for sure, it will be used every time a man and a wolf are close together. Stick with true facts, things that have happened, and I'll give you more credit. Stay away from the little Red Ridding hood stories.

My biggest problem with your rhetoric, and that of your peers is the perception to the rest of the world that your one of us, a"Sportsman". I just wish you'd go about your business and keep your mouth shut doing so.

Moose man, that post of yours is one of the best I've ever seen you write. Kudos to you.

We didn't reach our quota - so - live up to your screen name and quit shooting crooked:

2009 Quota - 75, 2009 wolves killed by hunters - 72. http://billingsgazette.com/news/sta...cle_ebeb462e-d332-11de-a394-001cc4c03286.html

In what post did I ever mention scare tactics, right wing politicians, etc? All I said was that if I was in their shoes I would have exterminated the entire pack.

And yes, I am also a sportsman, who actually cares about the future of hunting for my children, grandchildren and great grandchildren. I suggest you start caring also before it's too late. I've never told any red riding hood stories so once again - maybe you should get the facts straight?

 

[Wolf Murder]

FYI.... when you end a quote, Use

... to start a quote use [quote} ... (But use a ] instead of a } like I did

It will look like this for the final Product :



It won't end like your last post :

soon.
QUOTE] jsut add the [/quote]

: at the end instead of a nice quote. (fact)


....Lesson was free this time Amigo !!! [/QUOTE]

Thanks for the advice - I was having a hell of a time with that hombre

 

[Moosie]

Close... very close. If you have to many in there it get's confused though... You do it twice if you want to get crazy though like this :

Look how cool I am

I am a wolf murderer

I do think hitting a Running wolf is hard to do... (Just guessing here, no first hand knowlege ) So that might be the reason for only one dead wolf. I'm guessing had they shot into the ground the wolf would have scattered just the same and shooting one.

 

[Mudranger1]

interesting videos Sytes