Screwing over the Non-resident (or not)?

[406dn]

Furthermore, if you think that our systems for NR access to hunting tag allocations haven’t not marginalized NR to the point where an entire industry is being built around commercializing wildlife your pretty well clueless. If that’s an idea to promote DIY public land hunting seems like it’s going about it ass backward. As all your doing is creating islands of hunters who only care about their own states because that’s all they will have access too.

A good decade or more ago, the outfitting industry in Montana convinced the state to have a quarter or so of the elk combination licenses available directly thru an outfitter. They were priced higher than the other tags. It was sold as giving outfitters more certainty that their clients would actually get a tag.

It was RESIDENT hunters who felt this was UNFAIR to NR hunters who wanted to hunt on their own, without hiring an outfitter. Your fellow diy hunters, living in Montana, gathered signatures to get an initiative on the ballot to get rid of the outfitter set aside. It passed and the program ended. Outfitters keep making runs to get it back, and regular Montana hunters keep trying beat it back.

It is beyond offensive that you portray resident hunters in the West as selfish pricks. If we are, you'd fit right in.

 

[Trial153]

A good decade or more ago, the outfitting industry in Montana convinced the state to have a quarter or so of the elk combination licenses available directly thru an outfitter. They were priced higher than the other tags. It was sold as giving outfitters more certainty that their clients would actually get a tag.

It was RESIDENT hunters who felt this was UNFAIR to NR hunters who wanted to hunt on their own, without hiring and outfitter. Your fellow diy hunters, living in Montana, gathered signatures to get an initiative on the ballot to get rid of the outfitter set aside. It passed and the program ended. Outfitters keep making runs to get it back, and regular Montana hunters keep trying beat it back.

It is beyond offensive that you portray resident hunters in the West as selfish pricks. If we are, you'd fit right in.

Again context matters. Your compadre Buzz the great one called fellow hunters “ Greedy pricks”. I am
Just going along for the ride. He is proving the point daily. When you have a state is unmatched in resident hunting benefits but it’s still not enough… the shoe fits

 

[Treeshark]

I know that would 100% be what you prefer for your own self interest.

Heck yeah!

I get your stance too, if I was in your position I would probably share it.

I guess we’re going to both have to just sit and watch the big dogs duke it out for the next few years and see what happens.

 

[BuzzH]

Heck yeah!

I get your stance too, if I was in your position I would probably share it.

I guess we’re going to both have to just sit and watch the big dogs duke it out for the next few years and see what happens.

You'll lose...

I give you credit for admitting you never were an advocate for public lands or the Resident/Non Resident hunter of average means.

 

[Big Fin]

I left for 5 pages and imagine that, its still the exact same argument and fight on page 21 as it was since about page 3.

Have you learned anything new yet @Big Fin from 21 pages that you didn't already know from the hundreds of pages prior on this topic?

Yeah, I have learned some things that influence how I try to explain this complicated issue when I’m asked. Reading can from some very dedicated hunters of different perspectives is always helpful. I’m trying to figure out how we get more people focused on what helps us all, higher herd numbers. How to refocus that remains a mystery and maybe I’m naive to think that can be changed.

The normal spats that carry over from prior engagements is as unhelpful as it is expected.

 

[BuzzH]

Yeah, I have learned some things that influence how I try to explain this complicated issue when I’m asked. Reading can from some very dedicated hunters of different perspectives is always helpful. I’m trying to figure out how we get more people focused on what helps us all, higher herd numbers. How to refocus that remains a mystery and maybe I’m naive to think that can be changed.

The normal spats that carry over from prior engagements is as unhelpful as it is expected.

Creating more Resident advocates, it's what has always worked the best. Those closest to the issue have more at stake, more influence, and more willing to do the work.

Increasing membership and bringing back local hook and bullet clubs/groups that focus on the issues that matter.

RCFWA for a perfect example. Considering the size of the dog, they have a pretty vicious bite. Why I'm a life member.

Roy Jacobs being another perfect example on the work on the Front. Try to find me a NR hunter that would work harder than him on the issues involved in the Front or any other issues in Montana.

 

[SwaggyD]

Goodness. I'm on page 13 and you guys are typing faster than I read. Guess I will get all caught up after the lock.

 

[Visiting Hunter]

I do wish the draw systems were a bit more like NM in the regards of no points and a couple choices, pay upfront. I like the idea of a lottery better. And thats simply because I'm way to late before I considered NR hunting... it's hard to play the long term point game for me.. or justify it rather.. I'd personally rather be grabbing the decent to good quality hunts (I don't discriminate on having fun and getting out) my plan is ten years max then dump, mid term game im willing to play. I don't really mind points or anything either, but it does prevent me from really thinking about some of the gold units if it takes 20+ years now what would that look like.. then the question will it remain the same quality for another 20+ years, or change? Just my take on the points.. I do get it as a secured funding system for game agencies though as well.

 

[Mallardsx2]

Yeah, I have learned some things that influence how I try to explain this complicated issue when I’m asked. Reading can from some very dedicated hunters of different perspectives is always helpful. I’m trying to figure out how we get more people focused on what helps us all, higher herd numbers. How to refocus that remains a mystery and maybe I’m naive to think that can be changed.

Randy,

I have listened to you say this on several podcasts and YouTube videos. I agree. We need more animals. That would help the situation immensely.

BUT, I got to ask you.....Do you honestly, truly, believe that if herd numbers magically bounced back and the glory days returned to the western states for Elk, Deer, Pronghorn, Bears, Goats, Moose, and Sheep, that residents (of any state), still wouldn't be pushing for less NR allocation and more Resident allocation? Because from where I sit, and what I have read and seen over the last several years, residents won't be happy until they have ALL the BEST tags that they can get. (A part of me understands the desire....)

What allocation do YOU feel is fair for residents to have knowing that NR's are footing such a large portion of the westerns state departments bills? Do you feel that residents should pay more if they want more of the tags?

Just curious.

 

[BuzzH]

Yeah, I have learned some things that influence how I try to explain this complicated issue when I’m asked. Reading can from some very dedicated hunters of different perspectives is always helpful. I’m trying to figure out how we get more people focused on what helps us all, higher herd numbers. How to refocus that remains a mystery and maybe I’m naive to think that can be changed.

The normal spats that carry over from prior engagements is as unhelpful as it is expected.

Recently, I should also add working groups like the one put together with a bunch of MONTANA RESIDENT hunttalk members for the Montana deer working group.

IMO/E, things like that are what move the needle the most in helping to improve herds, etc.

 

[Forkyfinder]

There is no free lunch. Don’t be surprised when the rest of the country doesn’t fell like subsidizing your hunting and pubic lands. After all it made it to a party platform.
Don’t come running for support when you marginalized NR hunters to the point where they might want to see the deck reshuffled

There's no shortage of people to buy the tags as is. I know all kinds of people interested in it - I dont think cutting tags a lot changes that. For someone wanting to hunt elk/deer in a western state the opportunity absolutely exists - especially if you are okay with anterless.

As far as "reshuffling the deck" everyone has that option - its called moving.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Randy,

I have listened to you say this on several podcasts and YouTube videos. I agree. We need more animals. That would help the situation immensely.

BUT, I got to ask you.....Do you honestly, truly, believe that if herd numbers magically bounced back and the glory days returned to the western states for Elk, Deer, Pronghorn, Bears, Goats, Moose, and Sheep, that residents (of any state), still wouldn't be pushing for less NR allocation and more Resident allocation? Because from where I sit, and what I have read and seen over the last several years, residents won't be happy until they have ALL the BEST tags that they can get. (A part of me understands the desire....)

What allocation do YOU feel is fair for residents to have knowing that NR's are footing such a large portion of the westerns state departments bills? Do you feel that residents should pay more if they want more of the tags?

Just curious.

@Big Fin has already more or less commented on that?

Essentially - any opportunity in a NR state is one to be grateful of. It is explicitly not required under our current governance/structure.

 

[Big Fin]

Randy,

I have listened to you say this on several podcasts and YouTube videos. I agree. We need more animals. That would help the situation immensely.

BUT, I got to ask you.....Do you honestly, truly, believe that if herd numbers magically bounced back and the glory days returned to the western states for Elk, Deer, Pronghorn, Bears, Goats, Moose, and Sheep, that residents (of any state), still wouldn't be pushing for less NR allocation and more Resident allocation? Because from where I sit, and what I have read and seen over the last several years, residents won't be happy until they have ALL the BEST tags that they can get. (A part of me understands the desire....)

What allocation do YOU feel is fair for residents to have knowing that NR's are footing such a large portion of the westerns state departments bills? Do you feel that residents should pay more if they want more of the tags?

Just curious.

I do think the pressures get eased when we have more animals. I don’t think it is a recent trend because residents dislike non-residents, in spite of what some say about non-residents. If there is ample resident opportunity, most folks I talk to are fine with abundant nonresident opportunity.

The reason I say that is because I believe that. History has shown it to be true. Yet, we are at a place now with shrinking herds and growing resident populations, the two thinks that put the greatest pressure on the R-NR allocation.

I disagree that residents won’t be happy until they get all the good tags. If they truly felt that way, they could make it happen. Even with MT ram tags 50% of what they were in the 1990s, I’m still fine with NRs getting up to 10% of them. I can probably get ten legislators to sponsor a bill to cut that to 5% for every legislator I can get to sponsor a resident fee increase. I have no desire to cut the NR further and most the folks involved in policy in this state feel the same. If we were at 25%, like WY was, I’d probably feel differently.

Yes, I feel residents should pay more. I’ve tried to get that passed in MT and have pretty much given up on the idea. I get hammered every time I bring it up, but it needs to happen. The same people who complain about a resident fee increase are the same who complain about NRs having too much sway. Can’t have it both ways, but some want it that way.

I’m happy with 90/10 for all species.

 

[Trial153]

There's no shortage of people to buy the tags as is. I know all kinds of people interested in it - I dont think cutting tags a lot changes that. For someone wanting to hunt elk/deer in a western state the opportunity absolutely exists - especially if you are okay with anterless.

As far as "reshuffling the deck" everyone has that option - its called moving.

Like I said several times, telling people to move only exacerbates the issue. Be careful what you wise for you might get it. It’s brave new world buddy and the people moving aren’t buying a quarter acre lot and double wide.

 

[elkduds]

If there is ample resident opportunity, most folks I talk to are fine with abundant nonresident opportunity.

The reason I say that is because I believe that. History has shown it to be true. Yet, we are at a place now with shrinking herds and growing resident populations, the two thinks that put the greatest pressure on the R-NR allocation.


Yes, I feel residents should pay more. I’ve tried to get that passed in MT and have pretty much given up on the idea. I get hammered every time I bring it up, but it needs to happen. The same people who complain about a resident fee increase are the same who complain about NRs having too much sway. Can’t have it both ways, but some want it that way.

Yes to these. Don't know about MT, but CO CPW is scared to death to take resident fee increases to the legislature, who sets them. Probably with good reason, based on their experience, resident fee increase has been a very hard sell at the Capitol. Think how different it would sound to the legislature if a citizens' group advocated for resident fee increase.

 

[seeth07]

Randy,

I have listened to you say this on several podcasts and YouTube videos. I agree. We need more animals. That would help the situation immensely.

BUT, I got to ask you.....Do you honestly, truly, believe that if herd numbers magically bounced back and the glory days returned to the western states for Elk, Deer, Pronghorn, Bears, Goats, Moose, and Sheep, that residents (of any state), still wouldn't be pushing for less NR allocation and more Resident allocation? Because from where I sit, and what I have read and seen over the last several years, residents won't be happy until they have ALL the BEST tags that they can get. (A part of me understands the desire....)

What allocation do YOU feel is fair for residents to have knowing that NR's are footing such a large portion of the westerns state departments bills? Do you feel that residents should pay more if they want more of the tags?

Just curious.

Per RMEF, from 2011 to 2024, elk populations nationwide have increased by over 3%. Some states down but most up. In terms of elk, the amount of elk on the landscape has nothing to do with R vs NR allocation.

 

[Visiting Hunter]

You realize that the only reason that most western states offer any NR tags whatsoever is for the money, right?

It’s not like they’re doing it to be nice/fair (nor should they worry about that).

No I do get that Iv tried justify it with its our funding when i go argue the uncles.

You wield that like your scolding your dog. Shut up and be good or you don’t get this bone.

90/10 and worse is coming no matter how much NRs kiss ass.

The only thing stopping it is money. If they could find a way to take it all while NR paid and got nothing they would

but what I don't think people get is the west is still by in large a bunch of old heads... and whining and b**ching isn't a satisfying taste to them. My uncles, dad, grandpa, would by happy to end nr hunting, by in large I think a large part of eastern montana... so I think if you want to even be included in the conversation with these guys your going to have to be productive and at this point the name calling and bs complaining is more of what I see as the old guys seeing it as "this is not the type of whining little b**ch$ we want here" If my eastern Montana family seen this, that's about exactly what they would say. It's a ranching community they don't really give a shit about nr feelings and if you should or shouldn't come... I can tell you that. I don't see the NR problem around my house but I kinda see some of the peices they have to the puzzle I didn't. There's still more respectable answers then not from most.. but I'd warn the whiney name calling crap isn't gonna win anyone's hearts over out west.

Everyone in here taking people's opinions, and acting like opinions can't change, as hard as a 20 dollar prostitute at the end of the month.

If the science allows NR harvest montana will be for it. as soon as herds start hurting like 4 6 7.. nr tags will be first. I'm just saying it's gonna help your conversion as how can we help get those numbers back? oh okay no does for 5 years or whatever it is... hey no problem.. your not helping with the well it's just gonna get 5 percent less you greedy prick. Yeah it will if we can't figure out how to help the herds.

 

[Hunt West]

I think WY officially had transferable landowner tags for cow elk this year and the landowner could charge a fee for the voucher. @BuzzH or @JM77 could expand on this and correct me where I’m wrong.

 

[BuzzH]

I think WY officially had transferable landowner tags for cow elk this year and the landowner could charge a fee for the voucher. @BuzzH or @JM77 could expand on this and correct me where I’m wrong.

Not through the general draw, auxillary and kill permits. I heard a rumor this morning that all may be changing.

 

[elkduds]

I have successfully avoided this thread for 23 pages. Not going back to read now! If someone has a specific question about the draw process working group, they can ask in that thread. BTW, a working group update memo is posted on the March Commission meeting webpage.

@Mallardsx2 posted this in another thread today. Memo of recommendation from current working group to CPW Board.

https://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Commission/2024/March/Item.27_March_2024_DWG_Memo.pdf