School me up on buying a 4 to 6 ton excavator and mulching head

[npaden]

Pin/tongue weight is on the truck, not on the trailer axles.

Okay, I was wrong. The GVWR on my truck is 11,350lbs.





So does that limit me to a 14,650 lb trailer to stay under the 26,000 CDL limit?

Do I get to do some type of calculation on what the tongue weight of the trailer would be that will take away the cargo capacity of the truck? You would need to do that to calculate the actual amount you really could tow.

The 11,350 GVWR of the truck plus the 18,500 max towing would be 29,850 but that is over the GCWR of 27,500 on the sticker because on an 18,500 trailer you would have at least 1,850 tongue weight so that would knock the carrying capacity of the truck down by that much.

So if I was pulling a 16,000 lb trailer then it would have at least 1,600 lb tongue weight so 11,350 + 16,000 - 1,600 = 25,750 so I would be good?

That would probably allow me to go up to a 5 ton machine at least.

 

[npaden]

Even with the 16,000 lb trailer that pretty much rules out any of the 5 ton machines. Most of them weigh in right around 12,000 lbs with a cab. Most of the 16,000 lb trailers have an empty weight of almost 4,000 lbs so I would have to haul the mulcher head separately or I would be over the GVWR of the trailer.

 

[WTFJohn]

Okay, I was wrong. The GVWR on my truck is 11,350lbs.

View attachment 284857
View attachment 284858


So does that limit me to a 14,650 lb trailer to stay under the 26,000 CDL limit?

Do I get to do some type of calculation on what the tongue weight of the trailer would be that will take away the cargo capacity of the truck? You would need to do that to calculate the actual amount you really could tow.

The 11,350 GVWR of the truck plus the 18,500 max towing would be 29,850 but that is over the GCWR of 27,500 on the sticker because on an 18,500 trailer you would have at least 1,850 tongue weight so that would knock the carrying capacity of the truck down by that much.

So if I was pulling a 16,000 lb trailer then it would have at least 1,600 lb tongue weight so 11,350 + 16,000 - 1,600 = 25,750 so I would be good?

That would probably allow me to go up to a 5 ton machine at least.

I went down this path before I bought my current machine and trailer. I'm getting a CDL to be done with all the nonsense, finding a trailer & machine that does the work desired and is still 100% legal is a pain. I haven't had any issues getting pulled over or weighed, but if I were I wouldn't be surprised if I'm over in some way, shape, or form due to the number of different things that have to 'line up' between truck and trailer weights. Plenty of people around here pull 18k rated trailers all the time with 3/4 ton trucks, I'm not saying it's legal and you won't have issues (esp with out of state tags) but you won't be the only one out there doing it. I would not try to go larger than a 5 ton machine and get away with it though.

Another thing to thing about is trailer axles & tires, getting duals will make it tow a lot better and gives a much higher margin of safety (8 tires vs 4 means 12.5% loss of capacity in a blowout not 25%). The downside here is the additional weight and the fact that most trailers with duals are rated higher than 15k.

 

[hank4elk]

I would never tow a heavy machine with a 3/4 t truck.
Ton and a half is marginal...IMHO.
Towed and used a lot of equipment with the Parks Dept. including a tracked cat asv w/6in1 blade, backhoes, small Cats, tractors.

 

[geewhiz]

I would never tow a heavy machine with a 3/4 t truck.
Ton and a half is marginal...IMHO.
Towed and used a lot of equipment with the Parks Dept. including a tracked cat asv w/6in1 blade, backhoes, small Cats, tractors.

I tow my brothers 12k lb excavator from time to time on a 14k trailer which technically is a bit overweight for the trailer and I tow it with my 3/4 ton '17 ram with the 6.4. Wouldnt do it day in and day out but it holds its own and does just fine when i need it to. Of course a 1 ton diesel would be better but i dont want/need one.

 

[npaden]

The 3/4 ton trucks of today are heavier and spec out better in every category than the 1 ton trucks of just 10 years ago (at least the single wheel version). It really is amazing that the payload capacity on my 3/4 ton truck is 3,287 lbs. That's over a ton and a half.

Doing more digging I have found what looks to be the actual law on the CDL requirements.

FMCSA defines GCWR as “the greater of:

1. A value specified by the manufacturer of the power unit, if such value is displayed on the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS) certification label required by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, or
2. The sum of the gross vehicle weight ratings (GVWRs) or the gross vehicle weights (GVWs) of the power unit and the towed unit(s), or any combination thereof, that produces the highest value. Exception: The GCWR of the power unit will not be used to define a commercial motor vehicle when the power unit is not towing another vehicle.”

National Highway Traffic Safety Administration does not require GCWR on vehicle certification labels, so unless a manufacturer includes the value as extra information, motor carrier enforcement would likely use the sum of the GVWRs as GCWR during a roadside inspection. If GCWR is 26,001 pounds or more, and the trailer being towed has a GVWR of 10,001 pounds or more, the combination would be considered a commercial motor vehicle for CDL purposes (see CFR 49 Part 383 – Commercial Driver’s License Standards; Requirements and Penalties for more details).

I added the bold emphasis. So essentially if I don't get a CDL then I'm limited to pulling a 14K GVWR trailer behind my truck. No credit given for the tongue weight of the trailer coming off my payload capacity of the truck even though you would really need to use that in your calculation.

That would for sure limit me to a 4 ton excavator (that generally weigh around 9,000 lbs) if I want to be legal. I would most likely only be towing 2 or 3 times a year between properties but not sure it would be worth the risk.

What I really need on my property in Colorado is probably an 8 ton machine, I guess I could just step up to that and pretty much leave it there and never move it. The 8 ton machines with 2,000 hours on them really aren't that much more expensive than a 4 or 5 ton machine and would for sure get more work done quicker and easier. I think a mulching head would put a real big strain on a 4 ton machine.

 

[tillicant]

Okay. I'm looking hard at buying a 4 to 6 ton excavator and a mulching head for it. I had been looking at a skid steer setup with a mulching head but I already have a 55hp tractor and think an excavator would be way more useful for other things around than a skid steer would be. Also on my property in Colorado I think an excavator would get around on the steeper slopes better than a skid steer would.

I'm looking at a setup like this -

or this -

I've been looking at a lot of brands of excavators and mulching heads and seems like really most of them are pretty good. If I went out and bought new right now I think I would get a Takeuchi TB260 and a Fecon FMX36 mulcher head. The Takeuchi seems to do really well in most other areas but it has the best auxiliary hydraulic flow out of that range of machines. I am looking to limit myself to a 5.5 ton excavator because that would be about the biggest I could haul with my 3/4 ton pickup and I would like to be able to move it between properties by myself without having to hire it out every time I wanted to move it. I like a lot of the features of the bobcat E50 but it's auxiliary hydraulic flow is only 20 gpm compared to 27 gpm on the Takeuchi.

Of course I would be looking to find a gently used 5 or 6 year old machine with under 2,000 hours on it instead of buying new so I might have to alter my wish list a little. I think I would probably end up buying the mulcher head new, they run right around $20,000 for most of the brands in that size range.

This is something that is most likely going to be a year+ long process on making this decision but I've been looking around and if the perfect machine dropped in my lap at a great price I would probably pull the trigger earlier.

For sure would end up with a thumb on the excavator and a couple different buckets and I think I could find a lot of different things to use it for.

One other thing that I've been looking at that seems to be a variable on the different machines is the blade. Some of them the blade is strictly and up and down and that is it, several add a angle feature and there are a few that go all the way with the full 6 way dozer blade with the angle and tilt. That seems like it would be nice, but I think the 4 way blade would probably be good enough.

I figured there are probably some folks on here with a lot more experience with equipment like that than me and might have some good insights. It seems like the gently used market is pretty good right now for a buyer, I've been reading that it might drop a little more in 2024 but that's all speculation.

Oh well, I've been looking around for a while now and thought I would throw this out there to see where the hunttalk world might steer me.

Tak is a good pic.
Not sure on the quick connects for the Tac. If possible get a universal, pin grabber style.
Bobcat limits to the "bobtach" style.

 

[ImBillT]

I’ve only operated skid steers, and there are definitely some brands that I substantially disliked(Gehl comes to mind). I would suggest renting an excavator for a few projects, and trying a different brand each time you rent. You could potentially even rent closer to CO and avoid towing all that way.

 

[npaden]

I have been getting pop up ads now for excavators and decided to go ahead and call and see how much a new one cost. I was a bit surprised that they aren't that much more than the used ones are. Got a quote for a Takeuchi TB250-2 which is their 5 Ton model and it was $67,250 with a cab and angle blade and bucket and thumb. Brand new. The "good" deals I've been seeing on 2,000+ hour machines have been in the $45,000 - $50,000 range. I've actually seen a used Kubota KX-040 listed for $70,000.

If I can stay out of needing a CDL I think a 5 ton machine would work pretty well for most of what I need. The listed weight on the Takeuchi TB-250 is 11,250 and the mulching head would be between 750 to 1,000 lbs depending on brand. Let's just say 12,000 on the low side.

A 14K GVWR trailer is going to weigh 3,000lbs and have a capacity of 11,000lbs. I have seen a few 15K GVWR trailers and they have 7K rated axles. One in particular only weighs 2,900lbs and give you a capacity of 12,100lbs. If you add the 15k GVWR to the 11,350 GVWR of my truck I'm over the 26,000lbs, but if you add the GVWR of the truck plus the rating on the axles of 7K each I'm good. If you weighed the truck and trailer combined with the load I would easily be under 26,000lbs. Probably depends on the mood of whoever is checking things out if they are going to cut me slack on the way they add the numbers up.

 

[npaden]

It just seems crazy that if I read things correctly they could write you up for pulling a 16K GVWR empty flatbed trailer because the GVWR of the truck and trailer would exceed the 26K threshold. I would assume that 95% of the people out there enforcing this would cut you a break on something like that but who knows.

But if you have a 14K trailer with a 12K excavator on it, no way they could even tell you were doing anything wrong unless they got you on the scale and made you unhitch from the trailer and weighed the trailer and excavator without the truck taking up the weight on the tongue. If they weighed the trailer on the scale it would show under 14K as long as you had at least 1k of tongue weight and you would be probably closer to 1,500 or more on tongue weight.

This whole thing has me in circles just on the legality of pulling the thing maybe once a year to Colorado and back.

 

[wayne.j]

View attachment 283995
A friend did a print on his 3d printer of the property in Colorado for me. The color changes for each 100 feet of elevation. You can see the property line etched in as well. I think this helps show that the property is pretty steep. I own pretty much all the higher stuff, the low valley on the bottom right isn't mine.

I wouldn’t be using the excavator mulcher on the steep stuff but would be selectively picking out some of the flatter spots (mainly ridges and saddles) and doing the pinion/juniper abatement there to allow for more usable forage for wildlife.

Thats so awesome. Never seen anyone 3d print their property. Cool stuff.

 

[npaden]

I've been looking and looking and just can't pull the trigger. There have been some pretty good sales on new machines and financing specials, but I just don't have the time to run a machine the time that it really should be used right now. Hard to justify $70k+ on a machine that I could only operate 40 or 50 hours a year. I do need to do some road work on my property in Colorado that an excavator would be good for, maybe I'll rent one and see how it does.

I think I have decided that if I got a 17K rated trailer with 8,000lb axles and had it derated down to 14,650 that I would be able to legally haul a 5 ton machine. Worst case scenario I would have to put the mulching head in the back of the pickup but sounds like they aren't ever going to weight the trailer separately from the truck so I think it would be fine to just leave the head on it.

Of course I just signed a contract on another 36.5 acres adjoining my place in Colorado for almost exactly what the Takeuchi TB-250 would have cost so I'm low on funds again. Couldn't pass up the land, it gave me road access to part of my property that I hadn't been able to get to very easy and completely land locked 40 acres of BLM land.

I really do want an excavator, it is just going to be another year or two.