RIP Charlie Kirk

[Stocker]

I don't know who said it a few pages back, but it was something along the lines of, "Based on the comments in this thread, I wouldn't share a campfire with some of you."

*gets onto soapbox, clears throat*

What a GD SNOWFLAKE comment.

Now I'm making the assumption, despite the adage about asses, that your comment was not actually about a campfire but a metaphor that allows you to put down other people that you disagree with and not be called out on it. I'm calling you out. Recognize that you (the all and any of you, you, and including myself) are not smarter, more rational, or more morally just than people simply because they have opposing political views. This thread represents all the good that's left in America. We're on page 15 of mostly reasonable, rational dialogue that hasn't devolved into personal attacks or broad-brush accusations. That doesn't mean that everyone's going to agree. That is a good thing. And if you can't see the value in differing opinions, then I enter that as evidence into the "part of the problem" argument.

And if I made an ass of myself and you were actually being literal about a campfire, then well, no shit Sherlock. I wouldn't willingly share a campfire with most people. The campfire threshold is actually a pretty high bar. But it has nothing to do with their politics or if they believe CK was the second coming of Jesus for conservative ideology. I would happily share a campfire with both @Nick87 and @Stocker despite the fact that I know damn good and well we share almost no political opinions, but they are sharp guys with great self-depricating humor. I know I'd laugh my ass off. Not sure if they'd share the same sentiment.

I love a good discussion of differing opinions. Hell if I’m in a room full of people thinking the same I go out of my way to take a borderline position just to stir debate, some call that devils advocate, some say I’m an As*****. I’m forever curious I like having conversations with people who can lay out a clear idea of why they have a different opinion or belief than I do, and can sit and listen to my pov. I’ve had some great conversations with people who are completely the flip side of me on politics and we left friends. I’ve also had people who think almost the same as I do and I’d rather have a debate with a rock than talk politics with them.

Too many people wanna fight and debate to change someone’s mind, the point of a debate is to open someone up to your opinion that maybe they may come around and see it your way on their time. Trying to beat someone into your view right now just creates the hate we see today. Oh you are republican, oh you nazi trash, democrat, oh you commie rat. There’s no debate on that, just intellectually deficient person that can’t articulate or come up with an idea themselves, sadly that’s the majority of the country today getting pumped full of 24/7 partisan news.


I pretty much think the government should be very limited, we shouldn’t have troops all over the planet, we shouldn’t be involved in any way in Europe, we should have secure borders, I think society is way too caught up in consumerism and has lost sight of what is important. I despise bureaucracy and stupid people who think they are smart because they snuck their way into something. Hell if someone from 1950 was reading this they’d say I was a liberal, but I’m an alleged fascist today.


I don’t argue with people who call names and can’t make points anymore. Or don’t have enough respect to listen to a retort. Hell I’ll share a campfire with anyone, but if you’re with me we’ll be too tired from screwing up multiple stalks and setups to debate about that crap anyway.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Theres one dude here I guarantee I’d be as far away from his fire as possible. Ontario something or other is his handle

I just got this disturbing mental image of a mashup of Samuel Jackson’s Capital One Credit Card commercial and Ontario’s fecal disposal habits…

“What’s in your campfire?”

 

[Elky Welky]

One of my best friends from law school is a prosecutor in the same jurisdiction in which I am a public defender. Our offices go at it every single day. One of my oldest and other best friends has one source of news that is highly partisan and his entire worldview is informed by that source.

This isn’t to toot my own horn, but the anecdote is simply to say that it is entirely possible to hold strong and opposing views, argue vehemently, and still happily share a campfire and see these people as nuanced, decent, and worthy.

Many here know I don’t hesitate to throw down, sometimes quite pointedly, with folks like @Ben Lamb, @Gerald Martin, and @BuzzH. I also didn’t hesitate to introduce myself, shake Buzz’s hand, and talk with him at rendezvous. I’ve hunted with Gerald and had a great steak dinner with Ben. I’d do all of the same again. We’re all people. We’re all passionate advocates for what we believe in.

If violence starts to make people feel no longer safe to argue, passionately, and still see the humanity in others, then Evil wins and our country is no longer the place our forefathers (who also debated furiously) envisioned.

 

[cgasner1]

One of my best friends from law school is a prosecutor in the same jurisdiction in which I am a public defender. Our offices go at it every single day. One of my oldest and other best friends has one source of news that is highly partisan and his entire worldview is informed by that source.

This isn’t to toot my own horn, but the anecdote is simply to say that it is entirely possible to hold strong and opposing views, argue vehemently, and still happily share a campfire and see these people as nuanced, decent, and worthy.

Many here know I don’t hesitate to throw down, sometimes quite pointedly, with folks like @Ben Lamb, @Gerald Martin, and @BuzzH. I also didn’t hesitate to introduce myself, shake Buzz’s hand, and talk with him at rendezvous. I’ve hunted with Gerald and had a great steak dinner with Ben. I’d do all of the same again. We’re all people. We’re all passionate advocates for what we believe in.

If violence starts to make people feel no longer safe to argue, passionately, and still see the humanity in others, then Evil wins and our country is no longer the place our forefathers (who also debated furiously) envisioned.

We are probably due for another beer. It may have to wait till after season has settled down. It’s funny I actually enjoy having conversations with people I don’t agree with on a lot of stuff. Seems to be the best way to open your mind up a little.

 

[Gulf of America]

Charlie Kirk was killed by a meme

Making sense of our dark new era of extremely online political violence

www.garbageday.email

This is a really interesting article about the memes inscribed on the shooter’s bullet casing and how they could provide some insight into motive. I’m not that old, but I think I’m pretty much the last of the generation that didn’t have smartphones until adulthood, and I don’t understand any of the references but it paints a really scary picture about how easily kids can be radicalized by groups online, especially kids who don’t have enough real friends and consider these online groups their true friends.

 

[thomas89]

Don’t forget that the extreme rhetoric is present right here on this website. (MAGA = KKK meme from a few weeks back comes to mind)

It isn’t just fringe websites anymore where one can be exposed to that stuff, a public lands hunting website would be the last place I’d expect to see that nonsense, but here we are.

 

[rjthehunter]

I didn't...I compared it to murder over a belief system which shows me that people are willing to kill over something that the average person wouldn't consider. Regulating emotions is a skill. Being a teacher for as long as I have, this murder doesn't surprise me at all. There are many kids who can't regulate their emotions. They haven't learned how to and until they do, this will be a common occurrence.

This murder doesn't surprise you???

Many teachers & professors indoctrinate students into their own way of thinking, which is typically left of center. Shouldn't teachers be teaching kids how to regulate their emotions? More hate was taught towards half of the political aisle vs emotion regulating.

I went to a public college and realized how imminent the issue was. I had professors that would sit and complain about Trump or belittle anyone who didn't lean left like they did. It was actually disgusting to listen to.

 

[Hem]

Clearly some members here need validation.

 

[Keep'er Movin]

This murder doesn't surprise you???

Many teachers & professors indoctrinate students into their own way of thinking, which is typically left of center. Shouldn't teachers be teaching kids how to regulate their emotions?

I went to a public college and realized how imminent the issue was. I had professors that would sit and complain about Trump or belittle anyone who didn't lean left like they did. It was actually disgusting to listen to.

I teach health education. A large part of our curriculum is dedicated to SEL (social and emotional learning). My health curriculum is skill based. We don't teach kids about bones and muscles like health class was when I was growing up. The health skills that students are expected to be proficient in are advocacy, decision making, interpersonal communication, goal setting, self management, identifying influences, and gathering information. We obviously sprinkle health topics into the lessons, but we are constantly working on the skills I just mentioned.

As far as indoctrination, I don't know anyone in my building that incorporates their own political bias into lessons. Honestly, I probably have the most "controversial" lessons because a lot of health is adopting a value system based around certain behaviors (not smoking or vaping, teaching empathy skills, etc.).

You asked if teachers should be teaching kids how to regulate emotions? No we shouldn't unless the curriculum calls for it, but unfortunately because some kids aren't picking up that skill at home, yes we are trying to pick up the slack. IMO, we teach a lot of things that isn't in the curriculum, but it is what it is. The SEL curriculum I mentioned earlier was implemented a few years ago just for that purpose...to teach kids how to regulate their emotions because so many weren't getting it at home.

No this murder doesn't surprise me. If you have ever spent any time in an urban setting school, I don't think you would be surprised either. There are a ton of dysregulated kids out there.

By the way, what class were you taking in college where a professor talked about politics? My professors were excellent and I went to two state schools in Wisconsin.

 

[Hunting Wife]

Well said. I think as humans we all want validation from our fellow humans of the things we believe in. That affirmation of our beliefs provides a sense of security, identity and control in a world that is difficult and dangerous to exist in as an individual.
Truth as an objective anchor is something everyone wants to be tethered to as a mooring point to relate to life. That’s a universal thing regardless of how it’s codified within a culture or society. It should be something that unifies us in our humanity even as we debate and argue in our search to understand truth.


The search for connection to truth is complex because truth stands alone and is not encapsulated completely by any individual, society, political system or religion. It becomes even more complex because humans have learned to leverage “truth” to their own advantage over other humans. It remains complex as human understanding of truth are often oppositional to each other.

When the struggle to be right is more important than the understanding of truth and application of that truth in our individual lives, humility and restraint are the first things we abandon and conflict and violence often follow.

We are all wrong in our understanding of truth to some degree. We are also all hardwired as humans to be correct in our understanding of truth to some degree.

The people that demonstrate an example of how to debate ideas and articulate their understanding of truth are valuable assets to any society. We may not agree with their conclusions, but the fact that they challenge ours and that challenge inspires us to either gain more understanding of what makes our understanding more solid or influences us to abandon an understanding of truth because our understanding is inaccurate is a benefit to us personally and to society as a whole.


It is difficult for most of us to present our understanding of truth and have the restraint to let it stand on its own without needing to have the person we’re presenting it to accept it and implement it.




As a Christian who has an imperfect yet robust paradigm of certain truths and order for human society, I am continually amazed at the restraint that Jesus himself showed in his time of ministry when he was on this earth. Many of his most radical truth claims were in stark opposition to the status quo of the societal, religious, and political norms of the day, yet he presented the acceptance of truth as an act of individual free will and responsibility.

“ If any man hear my voice….”
“Let him that has ears to hear”
“I stand at the door and knock, if any man opens the door, I will come in….”


Those words were spoken alongside some of the most profound and provocative statements his audience had ever heard.

I am inspired by the willingness of Charlie Kirk to engage, debate and present his views.


I am also uncomfortable with the synchronization of many of the views I agree most with to political organization and power structure that tends towards forcing application of their understanding of truth as a societal requirement rather than an individual choice.

I guess it’s par for the course that no human example is without flaws in understanding and presentation.

Perhaps rather than being a source of disappointment and discouragement it should be a source of hope that each of us can also be an example that inspires others in spite of our shortcomings.

I’ll be honest..I’m generally turned off, or at least made very uncomfortable when Christianity enters the conversation because today it seems that it has become a blunt weapon to justify poor behavior, cruelty, and forced compliance to a belief system.

Then I read something like this. You give me hope Mr. Martin.

 

[Lostinthewoods]

Don’t forget that the extreme rhetoric is present right here on this website. (MAGA = KKK meme from a few weeks back comes to mind)

It isn’t just fringe websites anymore where one can be exposed to that stuff, a public lands hunting website would be the last place I’d expect to see that nonsense, but here we are.

Part of this comes from how people feel like they need to talk to eachother on this page. Some of these posts are the equivalent of people yelling and cussing in a conversation, because in their mind that means they are winning.

I think it aligns with what @Hem said. Some people need validation.
What’s worse is they get it from the like buttons.

They go sit at their dinner table to talk about how “they owned someone” today on a forum.

 

[cgasner1]

They go sit at their dinner table to talk about how “they owned someone” today on a forum.

I’ve never felt that way. I sure have felt like the forum owned me by being way too involved with a conversation on here.

 

[Lostinthewoods]

I’ve never felt that way. I sure have felt like the forum owned me by being way too involved with a conversation on here.

Your cup is filled each day by many things. Maybe it’s your family, maybe it’s your job, maybe it was your awesome bull, maybe it’s Jesus.

What I’m saying is some people, to include posters here, fill their cup by being crap heads to others. They do so in a way that it doesn’t even provoke healthy conversation and then that’s what they have to validate their day.

 

[jimh406]

It's hard to say, but some people seem to have miserable lives or are just unhappy. Some of the posts by some are vicious even about outdoor/hunting topics. It's not surprising that their posts about political disagreements are the same. Still, a shame.

 

[noharleyyet]

And just like that we’re down to memes on brass ownership.

 

[cgasner1]

And just like that we’re down to memes on brass ownership.

I’m torn on people taking about that mainly because by talking about it you give that piece of garbage what he wanted. That was the entire point of why stuff was scratched into brass.

 

[kansasdad]

 

[noharleyyet]

I’m torn on people taking about that mainly because by talking about it you give that piece of garbage what he wanted. That was the entire point of why stuff was scratched into brass.

You’re right but it’s too late. It will be vivisected and parsed to fit disparate narratives.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I’ll be honest..I’m generally turned off, or at least made very uncomfortable when Christianity enters the conversation because today it seems that it has become a blunt weapon to justify poor behavior, cruelty, and forced compliance to a belief system.

Then I read something like this. You give me hope Mr. Martin.

I’ll be honest. I’m generally turned off as well. If I could maintain my faith and divorce myself from the negative behavior of Christians I would in a heartbeat. The big problem with that is I am one and some of that negative behavior is mine.
I’ve contemplated the consequences of abandonment of my faith and imperfect obedience to what acceptance of Christ’s teachings and examples require from someone who is a believer. I’ve come to at least a couple conclusions.

1. I don’t know that I could and make sense of existence and the meaning of life apart from that faith.

2. I would be a far worse person than I am apart from it. My understanding of what faith and obedience requires inspires the best of who I am and checks the worst of who I could be. I’m not all that great but believe me I could be a lot worse.

 

[Gulf of America]

And just like that we’re down to memes on brass ownership.

That really wasn’t the intent of my sharing or how I took the article, more so it’s just eye-opening that there are corners of the internet that even the more internet-savvy among us (by which I generally mean, no offense, the youngest) have never heard of. And there seems to be a pretty common theme that many school shooters, Trump’s first assassination attempt, and this guy are very at home in those dark corners of the internet. If we don’t make any attempt to even learn what’s out there, we’ll never understand some of the factors that lead to this and how we could stop them.