Quality Or Quantity?

[BuzzH]

I guess for me, I can say that old habits die hard.

Where I grew up hunting elk in Montana, if you passed a legal elk, it could have very likely been the last chance you got. So I didnt pass many up, at least the first 15 years or so I hunted. The first couple dozen elk I shot were mainly shot while primarily hunting deer.

I also liked to hunt deer much more than elk, so the way I approached elk hunting was, the quicker I shot an elk, the sooner I could get on with hunting deer. Again, the heavily hunted public land that I grew up hunting, required that I spend a lot of time hunting deer to find a mature animal. I was pretty fussy on deer as there was always the potential to find a true hog of a whitetail where I hunted. Finding a really good bull there...very slim odds.

Since elk have never really been my thing, I usually take the low road and I'm quite happy to shoot raghorns on general tags. I try each year to get serious about elk in general areas, just cant seem to do it. I do believe that right now is about as good as it will ever get for elk hunting in most of the West. For those that really enjoy elk hunting, you couldnt be hunting at a better time...akin to living and hunting in the 60's for mule deer.

 

[jlmatthew]

I wish Colorado would duplicate the Montana method, which seems to be a good mixture of quantity & quality, but our elk are managed for revenue

 

[ElkNut1]

Greenhorn, I apologize if the phrasing was misleading, it was not my intent. Thanks for your insight!

Others, this is why I layed the ground rules OTC hunts! LE Tags are generally tough to get so it's very reasonable to hold out for a good representation of that unit!

If I were doing a TV Show type hunt I would not be looking for a freezer filler, even if on an OTC elk hunt! Consider our part of ID, it's tough hunting with low odds for success, but knowing ones areas well can increase ones odds to look for better quality & by putting in the time, I agree with others that 5 days in unfamiliar areas puts a great burden on you! In those cases in just an average unit you may be best to take the first thing that comes along! (grin)

BuzzH--You leave me dumbfounded!!! (big grin)

ElkNut1

 

[WapitiBob]

I hunt a 2 square mile area, 1/4 mile from the hwy. There are 15-20 bulls in there, most of the day, every day. The few people that hunt there, me and maybe one other, know the patterns and hunt accordingly so the Elk never leave. I would much rather hunt there than an area that has only 2 bulls.
Having my wife with me most years toting a camera, it's "almost" as much about the experience as it is about the kill.

I'll take quantity over limited quality every time.

 

[Horn Seeker]

Deer over elk! Bah! I know guys that enjoy pronghorn more than either...and just dont get it, but to each their own right.

I am a sucky hunter...and basically am happy when I find a "bull". None of the areas I hunt are open for spikes, so its usually a raghorn or young six point that I find...and I'm happy to kill them! I do however, try to put myself in areas that a bigger bull might be found more readily than some other areas. It has rarely paid off for me, but it has once (well, that had a lot to do with weather...or maybe 90% to do with weather!).

I have passed up raghorns with bow and rifle...usually real early in the season.

 

[brymoore]

I'm a meathunter at heart. I've drawn a few good tags that I've held out for premium animals but I mostly hunt for the experience and meat.

 

[Jon Boy]

The way I see quality versus quantity is in the types of hunts and seasons. Like greenhorn said Montana has both, quantity in the number of days but also quality if you can spend the time and get lucky. If asked do I want Utah quality or Montana quantity I would take the Montana scenario. I'd rather die than be one of 20 guys sitting in a picture because I was the spotter and couldn't get a tag. Id rather have a chance at a 300+ bull every year than a once in a lifetime chance at a 390 bull.

Thats the way I feel as well. MT doesnt have as much elk as say colorado, or as many big bulls as utah, but theres plenty of elk to keep a guy busy and always a chance of getting a hog. Plenty of back country to get away from crowds as well. I just couldnt stand not being able to hunt elk every year none the less 3-5 years.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Somebody told me all you got to do in Wyoming to get an elk on public land is get a few hundred yards from the vehicle and swing a dead cat.

 

[noharleyyet]

I wish Colorado would duplicate the Montana method, which seems to be a good mixture of quantity & quality, but our elk are managed for Texans

...fixed it for you.

 

[Lawnboy]

If I were doing a TV Show type hunt I would not be looking for a freezer filler, even if on an OTC elk hunt! Consider our part of ID, it's tough hunting with low odds for success, but knowing ones areas well can increase ones odds to look for better quality & by putting in the time, I agree with others that 5 days in unfamiliar areas puts a great burden on you! In those cases in just an average unit you may be best to take the first thing that comes along! (grin)

This scenario is exactly what Randy is doing with OYOA. Most if not all the hunts are areas he's never been or like this year was a return area. He's only there 5 days and has to try and figure it out and get an animal.
I guess it depends on what type of TV show you're doing. If you want to reflect the last part of your statement which happens to a lot of us then you do a show similar to what really happens (OYOA). If you have sweet ranch and unlimited time and no pressure then you do like 99% of all the other shows. Which is unlike 99% of the way the average hunter has it.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

Lawnboy speaketh the truth and that must be a pretty big cat that Greenhorn says you can swing and get an elk in Wyoming, LOL!!!

 

[jlmatthew]

...fixed it for you.

Now thats funny!

 

[BuzzH]

Somebody told me all you got to do in Wyoming to get an elk on public land is get a few hundred yards from the vehicle and swing a dead cat.

Greenhorn, yeah...and thats the problem. Way too many targets of opportunity.

I know what it takes to get elk every year, and also know what it takes to get elk like the ones you shoot every year...honestly, I'm not willing to do that, even for the sake of better quality. To kill AN elk/legal bull every year,isnt all that difficult IMO, but that is way different than killing mature bulls on public land on general and OTC tags every year.

Its really impressive when people are that committed to grind it out on public land year after year and take very quality animals on OTC or general tags. It takes almost year-round effort, lots of research, scouting, knowledge, etc. etc. I respect the hell out of those very, very few that do it, its not luck...

I still like the idea of general tags over LE for that exact reason...something for everyone and the best hunters get the best results. I hate when hunting, and perception of a hunters skill, is measured by who gets lucky in a drawing and who doesnt.

Prime example is the bull I killed in Wyoming with my bow that scored 370 gross....and the bull you took in 2010 in Montana, which also gross scored around 370 IIRC.

I got lucky in a drawing for an area that has some great bulls...they werent that hard to find, and there was only a few other people hunting there due to the lack of permits issued.

The bull you shot...way different. There were 130,000 other licensed hunters that had access to that bull. What was required for your elk VS. what was required for my elk...totally different league. They scored pretty close to one another, but thats about all those two elk share in common. The requirements of those two hunts are light years apart...

I can kill elk every year with no problem, but I'm far from a good elk hunter.

 

[ElkNut1]

Lawnboy, please be more specific! What are you saying about doing it the way it really happens? How is there any other way! (grin)

Too, if Randy is on a 5-6 day elk hunt with a bow will he shoot the 1st legal animal? This means a cow/spike or whatever's legal? Thanks!

ElkNut1

 

[Lawnboy]

I agree with others that 5 days in unfamiliar areas puts a great burden on you! In those cases in just an average unit you may be best to take the first thing that comes along! (grin)

ElkNut1

Your quote above more than likely answers the question about what Randy might do. That is his situation on most hunts. Even the one he's doing today. I can't speak for him but usually he tries for a bull and by day 5 any legal bull would do it and possibly a cow. He's not much different than most.

I guess what I was referring too was how it really happens would be showing a hunt similar to the one you had in the Bitteroot with no prior experience in the area and a set a amount of time. Almost all his shows are this type of format. I'm sure you'd been willing to take a small bull on that last of the hunt. No?

Not to hijack the thread with bashing other shows but I can tell you from experience with the videographers many shows are not showing you what really happened and aren't even using the footage from that hunt. Thus showing you "Not how it really happens for the public land guy".

It seems the more I talk the more I am not making sense so maybe I better stop. I'm pretty sure I know what you were looking for in the question posed at the beginning and I've diverted it. Sorry.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I tend to agree with Buzz on this.

Been thinking on this for some time, as we go into tentatives here in MT, and especially w/ the elk archery issue.

I think we also have a tendency to forget that the regs, while critically important for managing hunters, are just that: Hunter management rather than resource management. I'm all for thriving, vibrant herds of elk, deer, bighorns, pronghorn, etc. Absolutely. That means I want a large quantity of animals. As someone who still gets giddy when I see a mature antlered critter, I want quality too. So then the question becomes how do you achieve both? The secondary question is; Does the hunter matter more than the prey?

By that I mean if we put ourselves in front of the needs of the critters in terms of genetic viability in the long run, overall herd health or dispersment over the landscape, what are we actually workng towards? Has hunting, and the hunter conservationist movement become about self aggrandizement and fulfillment, or are we going to live up to our marketing materials and actually put the needs of wildlife and wildlife habitat ahead of ourselves? I'm not sure a bull elk gives much thought to the fact that's he's only a 330 and not a 390.

RMEF has a great web page about the Seven Sisters contained within the Noth American Model of Fishand WIldlife Conservation. Those sisters are:

Sister #1: The Public Trust
In North America, natural resources on public lands are managed by government agencies to ensure that we always have wildlife and wild places to enjoy.

Sister #2: Prohibition on Commerce of Dead Wildlife
Conservation laws and their strong enforcement in the United States and Canada saved wildlife from slaughter.

Sister #3: Democratic Rule of Law
You can help make laws to regulate hunting and fishing and conserve wildlife.

Sister #4: Hunting Opportunity for All
Every citizen has an opportunity, under the law, to hunt and fish in the United States and Canada.

Sister #5: Non-frivolous Use
In North America, we can legally kill certain wild animals under strict guidelines for food and fur, self-defense and property protection.

Sister #6: International Resources
Wildlife and fish migrate freely across boundaries between states, provinces and countries.

Sister #7: Scientific Management
The right information helps us make good decisions and become better stewards of wildlife.

I've long felt that numbers 1,4, and 7 were the most important. Within that preconceived notion then, my bias runs towards opportunity and quantity, because as we've seen that large herds of elk can produce several nice bulls. The issue I have with quality greatly reduces #4 - opportunity for all. Utah is the prime example of this. If I have to wait 20 years to draw a permit to hunt a mature bull elk, I'd rather take up ice fishing. Likewise, Utah cuts 13,000 resident Mule Deer tags in order to make up for the loss of critters they are claiming in order to further grow big bucks at the expense of the common man.

Ultimately, at least to me, that means that we hit it squarely on the middle ground. Some areas deserve protections in the form of LE Permits, other areas receive those protections because of their geographic position. Other areas have little to no access for the average hunter, yet sport robust populations of publicly held wildlife (See #1).

When I was working in Wyoming, former WGFD Terry Cleveland (whom I hold in the highest esteem and consider a great friend) told me that the days of the meat hunter were over, and agencies had better start managing for better quality because that's what hunters want. I disagree with that, especially working for small hunter/angler non-profits where most of the membership are meat hunters. Hunters en masse seem to want opportunity over strict regulations. That means we need to grow more elk and deer, while ensuring that the folks who only want the antlers have their opportunity just like the folks who believe 3 inches of fat on a cow elk's ass is a trophy.

You can have both. Or at least I'm going to keep believing that until the wolves eat the other 130,000 elk in MT.

 

[shoots-straight]

Yes, you can have both. We had it here in the Root just a scant decade ago. It took us 20+ years of protecting cows, closing access roads to elk migration routes, saving spike bulls, increasing lion harvest, and stopping illegal ATV use. Our elk were flourishing and increasing at a steady rate, (even with the preds increasing). Our bull/cow ratio's were above 25/100 and steady. We had some of the best elk hunting around. Loads of security cover, and great winter range, (were the snow hardily ever gets deeper than the ankles of an elk). Then came a new Bio, and a new era. I have warned many of you Hunt Talkers before, and will again. What happened to the Root, could very easily happen to where you hunt. Check to see what your ELK Objective is for that HD, then check to see where your population is sitting. Many areas in the state are still over objective, so more than likely there won't be more elk added in the future.

I grew up, (as Buzz did) shooting the first, and many times, the only elk you would see during a season out. If that was a spike, that was fine with me. I watched horrified as a kid, as my dad tied the horns up in a tree as we left with loaded packs from a kill site.

As the elk herds increased here so did the quality of those elk. We had the cover, and genetics to raise impressive elk. Every year many fine bulls over 350 were checked from public lands in the Root. Towards the end of season people would gather at the local Taxidermist shops and admire what the Root had on public lands. People would really bite their upper lips knowing that those elk came from lands we all have access too, and that the average hunter had a shot at, right up until that bulls death.

The wolf that had the most impact on our elk herds was the Imported, non native white man, and the 2% blood cross, barely native, American.

I think we can get the elk back to producing, in the long term, but we really need to re-visit the EMP, or scrap it all together.

 

[Lawnboy]

I have warned many of you Hunt Talkers before, and will again. What happened to the Root, could very easily happen to where you hunt. Check to see what your ELK Objective is for that HD, then check to see where your population is sitting. Many areas in the state are still over objective, so more than likely there won't be more elk added in the future.

I remember you saying that and I went to the Region 3 meeting on Wed. I got a feeling our Bios over here are aware and presented some areas that just need less animals taken. They are cutting tags because really that's all the control that they have at this point to help things recover. Obviously the wolves are doing their thing and we can only hope to cut some of those numbers enough to make an impact so it's up to the hunters to sacrifice a few years to help things turn around. Hopefully

 

[The Hedgehog]

Buzz, I still like the "swing a dead cat" tactic. That's awesome. Your elk was every bit, if not more of a great hunt than any I've been on. I can't think of a time I've hunted elk in my life that I didn't think the possibility of a real high-quality animal being somewhere around didn't exist. If I didn't think that, I'd have to find new places to hunt. It seems there's lots of great places in MT to hunt. If a guy puts in a little effort, it's hard not to at least see several decent bulls, especailly during archery season in September. I think things get a little tougher after the rut is completely over. Montana has quality, hopefully there'll always be some of that around. I'm sure WY and ID are no different. Glad I dont' live in AZ or UT.. though I do have 14 points in each state. I won't be hunting for a quantity elk there, though I suspect the quantity is HIGH.

 

[mixedbag]

I'm a tag eater I guess,but I won't shoot a spike or cow after driving 2000 miles to hunt them.I do have alot of fun being taught lessons by the big ones though.I just want to be happy with what I put my tag on,and not wonder "what if".being in the game is worth the price of the tag for me.I don't need a giant either,any average branch bull will have an arrow coming his way