Prairie dogs on public land grazing lease

[vanish]

I was listening to the CPW Commission meeting and right near the end a rancher came on to complain that the public land ( forest service ) he is leasing (for the last 25 years) for grazing has no grass on it due to prairie dogs. He was very upset that nobody was doing anything about it.

I'm not a rancher. This is what I don't understand: Why continue to lease it if its no good?

I have some thoughts but want to hold my tongue in case there is something obvious I am missing.

 

[mtnrunner260]

He likely doesn't have enough deeded acres to support the number of AUMs that he is running and there probably isn't any other allotments around that haven't been leased for generations.
So he is in a difficult spot that the CPW and other should address immediately but removing anything besides his cows that consume grass.

 

[1_pointer]

IIRC, in the USFS the grazing permit is tied to the herd. If correct, his herd is worth more having the lease than not. By giving up the permit/lease the permittee has the chance of never getting it back. Not too many folks are apt to give up an asset for their business that has the potential to be beneficial.

Likewise, I see no trouble in a stakeholder asking about improved, multiple use management. Caveat, I did not listen to the meeting and am only commenting based on the context in the OP.

 

[375H&H]

If there are solutions that allow him to graze and have better feed on the lease, then that sounds like a benefit to wildlife to me as I am sure they would like the increased feed as well.

 

[mtmiller]

If there are solutions that allow him to graze and have better feed on the lease, then that sounds like a benefit to wildlife to me as I am sure they would like the increased feed as well.

Benefits to wildlife such as Ferruginous hawks, mountain plovers, burrowing owls, badgers, ferrets and such?

 

[375H&H]

Benefits to wildlife such as Ferruginous hawks, mountain plovers, burrowing owls, badgers, ferrets and such?

It sounds like those benefits are already there.

I’m sure the OP is thinking of ungulates though...

 

[Deleted member 16014]

I was listening to the CPW Commission meeting and right near the end a rancher came on to complain that the public land ( forest service ) he is leasing (for the last 25 years) for grazing has no grass on it due to prairie dogs. He was very upset that nobody was doing anything about it.

I'm not a rancher. This is what I don't understand: Why continue to lease it if its no good?

I have some thoughts but want to hold my tongue in case there is something obvious I am missing.

To answer your specific question, @1_pointer is right. USFS leases differ from BLM in several ways, one being that when waved the lease comes with a "preference". Were he to sell his operation, there would be monetary value associated with the historic use of that lease. This nuance stems from how USFS grazing leases were originated, prior the Taylor Grazing Act. This is why, when the wild sheep foundation or others "buy out" a USFS allotment, the permit holder waves his permit back to the Forest without preference to another grazer. There are probably some here who know that process better than I.

As to what makes sense and whether he has any ground to stand on, well...some people will find things to complain about no matter what's out there.

 

[hank4elk]

Sounds like he has overgrazed his allotment to me.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

He was very upset that nobody was doing anything about it.

If I was a commissioner...

"Sir have you considered talking to a 13yr old with a .22?"

 

[vanish]

The value of the "preference" is the main part I am missing.

I was not trying to ask a leading question - nothing to do with hunting or food for other ungulates.

I'm simply hoping to better understand his situation because at first I was like "cry me a river" which isn't very empathetic.

 

[pointingdogsrule]

I have a rancher friend that has a lease. 3 years ago we went and shot 319 dogs in 2 days and this was our first time shooting dogs. The lease looked like a dessert and it wasn't the cattles fault. The place was overrun with dogs. Fast forward to last year. The "plague" went through the place and wiped all the dogs out. Last fall the grass was knee high. What a difference a year made. The leased land was within the private, owned land. The point being these leased lands can change year to year.

 

[mtmiller]

Last fall the grass was knee high. What a difference a year made.

Just out of curiosity, what was the grass?

 

[hank4elk]

I have Dogs on my place & they do get knocked back by plague & floods in my bottoms where they have moved back into from neighbors. Rio likes chasing dogs...lol

 

[Oak]

Prairie dog towns are usually sparsely vegetated. Removing native wildlife from public land to make room for domestic livestock is a tough take.

 

[pointingdogsrule]

Just out of curiosity, what was the grass?

I am NOT sure. If I make it out there this fall I will collect a few stems and send you a photo.

 

[pointingdogsrule]

Prairie dog towns are usually sparsely vegetated. Removing native wildlife from public land to make room for domestic livestock is a tough take.

So the question is: Are the towns sparsely vegetated because of the number of dogs that eat all the vegetation or are they sparsely vegetated in the land's "natural" state? Thanks

 

[Oak]

So the question is: Are the towns sparsely vegetated because of the number of dogs that eat all the vegetation or are they sparsely vegetated in the land's "natural" state? Thanks

Prairie dogs are considered keystone species because their disturbance creates a different ecosystem that benefits a multitude of species. Vegetation on dog towns usually changes from perennial grasses to annual forbs. There is obviously less canopy cover and more bare soil. While they can have a dramatic effect on grasslands, I would say it is a "natural" state, as they are native wildlife and many other species rely on the landscape they create. I'm sure there are others on here that know more about prairie dogs than me, though.

 

[Oak]

This recording should start at the beginning of Mr. George's discussion about his prairie dog problem (and his antelope problem, and his CPW problem).

 

[pointingdogsrule]

Prairie dogs are considered keystone species because their disturbance creates a different ecosystem that benefits a multitude of species. Vegetation on dog towns usually changes from perennial grasses to annual forbs. There is obviously less canopy cover and more bare soil. While they can have a dramatic effect on grasslands, I would say it is a "natural" state, as they are native wildlife and many other species rely on the landscape they create. I'm sure there are others on here that know more about prairie dogs than me, though.

I am not sure of the relationship, maybe burrows, however, never seen so many rabbits as I did in those dog towns.

 

[LuketheDog]

If I was a commissioner...

"Sir have you considered talking to a 13yr old with a .22?"

I know a 38yr old with a .22...ahem...who would love to pop some of those dogs