OYOA Wolf hunt - August 16th

[Southwind]

I enjoyed the wolf series. I might of missed it along the way but what cartridges were you two using in your Howas Randy?

 

[Zach]

Just finished part 2, great shows.

Glad to see the big black dog go down.

 

[mlbuck84]

If any wolf lovers read this...... Please login to debate

Sincerely Yours

 

[thecrittergitter]

I enjoyed the wolf series. I might of missed it along the way but what cartridges were you two using in your Howas Randy?

.308 Caliber..............

 

[BeeTee]

Wolves were largely plains animals in the 19th century and before – at least here in what is now the lower 48. The enviros claim that hunters/trappers/government killed all of the wolves a hundred years ago. Maybe on the plains, but the fact is, wolves were never a player in the mountains of western Montana. Lewis & Clark nearly starved when they traveled through the MT/ID mountains in 1805 because of a lack of wild game. The wolves stayed with the large herds of bison, elk and other plains species east of the continental divide, not in the mountains where elk and deer have virtually no defense against Timber Wolves. BT

 

[shoots-straight]

Wolves were largely plains animals in the 19th century and before – at least here in what is now the lower 48. The enviros claim that hunters/trappers/government killed all of the wolves a hundred years ago. Maybe on the plains, but the fact is, wolves were never a player in the mountains of western Montana. Lewis & Clark nearly starved when they traveled through the MT/ID mountains in 1805 because of a lack of wild game. The wolves stayed with the large herds of bison, elk and other plains species east of the continental divide, not in the mountains where elk and deer have virtually no defense against Timber Wolves. BT

BeeTee, although the part about Lewis and Clark almost starving while ascending Lolo pass and moving down the Idaho side is true, it seems as though timing might have been the biggest problem for them. Game surely was in the area, and the mountains contained large quantities of game. Grizzlies, and wolves where indeed plentiful in the Bitterroot Valley back when the earliest white man explorers came here.

Here's a post to Alexander Ross's journal on the expedition through Western Montana, namely the Bitterroot Valley in 1824. Note on the rest marker 13 and 14 that Alexander expounds about how much game is here.
http://user.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/ross.html

Lewis and Clark came through at a different time of year. Who knows why they had a hard time obtaining meat.

Bertie Lord another explorer, killed a large bull elk in the East Fork of the Bitterroot Valley on his expedition, it was mounted for the Smithsonian I believe.

 

[bjtc_brian]

SS, just curious, but L&C crossed the bitteroot mountains by October 6. I know times are different and all, but they would have been in the valley earlier September at the latest. Seems to me that the weather shouldn't have pushed many animals out of the area. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it doesn't quite add up to me. Was the weather so different by then that the snow was bad enough to have pushed the animals out? Another question, do you think the weather pushed them out of the whole valley in that day and age? I can see weather pushing them out of the mountains, but out of the whole valley and over other mountain ranges doesn't mesh with what I have been taught about most big game. Just curious as to what your thoughts are on this, as I you are probably well more knowledable in L&C than I am.

September 9 to September 11 - Camped at Traveler's Rest (Lolo, Montana), now a National Historic Landmark
September 1 to October 6 – Crossing the Bitterroot Mountains.

 

[BeeTee]

I know the elk rut peaks around the third week of September, but they bugle from about late August to the third week of October. That's the period when Lewis & Clark traveled through the Bitterroot. Elk are much easier to locate during the rut.

The vast tracts of forests and mountains that would eventually become the Bitterroot National Forest in western Montana were unroaded in the 1800s, and there was no way hunters could have extirpated existing populations of either the elk or wolves. I've hunted elk in the Pintler wilderness. I can't imagine hunting elk in such a remote and rugged area in the 1800s without developed wilderness trails, access roads, pickup trucks and horse trailers.

In the last decade of the 19th century, Marcus Daly, copper king magnate and philanthropist, paid to capture and ship train car loads of Yellowstone elk to the Bitterroot valley of western Montana, releasing them at small town train depots scattered along the length of the 90 mile long valley. If there had been elk here in any number, the effort wouldn't have been necessary.

Once the prey species have been returned to their 1805 numbers here in western Montana, the wolves will disappear along with them. Maybe that's what they were after all along... Maybe that's what "balance in nature" really means. Wolves - a wildlife reset button. BT

 

[shoots-straight]

SS, just curious, but L&C crossed the bitteroot mountains by October 6. I know times are different and all, but they would have been in the valley earlier September at the latest. Seems to me that the weather shouldn't have pushed many animals out of the area. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it doesn't quite add up to me. Was the weather so different by then that the snow was bad enough to have pushed the animals out? Another question, do you think the weather pushed them out of the whole valley in that day and age? I can see weather pushing them out of the mountains, but out of the whole valley and over other mountain ranges doesn't mesh with what I have been taught about most big game. Just curious as to what your thoughts are on this, as I you are probably well more knowledable in L&C than I am.

September 9 to September 11 - Camped at Traveler's Rest (Lolo, Montana), now a National Historic Landmark
September 1 to October 6 – Crossing the Bitterroot Mountains.

Lewis and Clark were afraid they might get snowed in the Valley, they could see the snow on the top peaks of the Bitterroots. They only took two days traveling the entire length before stopping at travelers rest.

I gave you proof and you brused it aside. You claimed you didn't call me a liar "But". I didn't write the journel, Alexander Ross did. Did you read it? That's proof there was game in the Root. The valley had a large Big Horn Sheep population too. Once domestics were brought in they all died off, other than one small remote herd in the West Fork.

My Grandad hunted and trapped wolves in the Root. He was born here in 1898. His Grandad was the first of our family to migrate to the Valley, in 1868. I think I know a little about what wildlife lived here. Those wolves eat something. There was also a large Griz population back then.

BeeTee, I knew that Marcus Daly paid for a load of elk, but I believe they were dumped off on his ranch. Not sure about him paying for elk to be dropped off at every depot station. I know that Ravalli County Fish & Wildlife ass. was involved with the elk that were returned to the Root back around 1912.
Just because there was a release of elk, doesn't mean there was NO elk.

I found a buffalo skull back in the Pintlers, so at least one lived there.

The valley had a large Indian population here. I imagine that game was use to people and knew what risks they posed. Who knows why L&C couldn't find game on Lolo pass. Could be a lot of things.

31 elk were taken from Yellostone and moved somewhere in Montana in 1912
30 where moved in 1914
50 in 1915
71 in 1916
25 in 1918
Deer were never relocated here, and we have a good mule, and whitetail population.
Moose were never relocated here and we have historically had a great moose population.
Goats once flourished as the Bitterroot Range gave out 75 tags when I was a kid.

 

[BeeTee]

BeeTee, I knew that Marcus Daly paid for a load of elk, but I believe they were dumped off on his ranch. Not sure about him paying for elk to be dropped off at every depot station. I know that Ravalli County Fish & Wildlife ass. was involved with the elk that were returned to the Root back around 1912.
Just because there was a release of elk, doesn't mean there was NO elk.

I found a buffalo skull back in the Pintlers, so at least one lived there.

The valley had a large Indian population here. I imagine that game was use to people and knew what risks they posed. Who knows why L&C couldn't find game on Lolo pass. Could be a lot of things.

31 elk were taken from Yellostone and moved somewhere in Montana in 1912
30 where moved in 1914
50 in 1915
71 in 1916
25 in 1918
Deer were never relocated here, and we have a good mule, and whitetail population.
Moose were never relocated here and we have historically had a great moose population.
Goats once flourished as the Bitterroot Range gave out 75 tags when I was a kid.

I wonder what the deer and moose populations were a hundred or two years ago? I've never hunted goats, but wished I had when I was younger. They have little to worry about where wolves are concerned.

Marcus Daly died November 12, 1900. The elk he transported had to have been moved sometime prior... I first learned about his elk transport years ago when the Daly Mansion Museum first opened. I remember seeing a photo display showing the elk during roundup and at Bitterroot train depots. Wish I could locate more of the story.

According to a Ravalli County Fish & Wildlife Association quote: "Though there was a nucleus of elk in the southeast portion of the Valley, the Club raised freight money to have over 100 Yellowstone elk shipped to the Bitterroot in 1912."
http://www.rcfwa.org/About_Us.aspx

"A nucleus" doesn't sound like many elk existed in the Bitterroot prior to 1912. Looks like we're headed back in that direction...

Grizz.... I've lived in the Root for more than 50 years. Grew up here. As a boy, I never heard any of the old-timers mention the Grizz. They are in the Mission mountains, in the Swan, and in the Bob. I suppose it may have been possible, and I'm open to persuasion.

Speaking of the Grizz.... back a few years ago (maybe 8-10), a Grizz was seen crossing Highway 93, the river, and was then seen headed northeast through hay fields in the Three Mile area between Stevensville and Florence. The bear was on a mission. Last it was seen was when it crossed into the Rock Creek drainage. I suspect it was headed back to Ovando/the Bob (where we suspect the greenies trapped it and illegally transported it to the Bitterroot, in an attempt to proclaim an indigenous or spontaneous population that needed protection). The bear didn't cooperate. BT

 

[whiskeydog]

some lady on the "Center for Biological Diversity" facebook page posted that we are "jackwads" for hunting wolves and that we could effectively manage the population without hunting in a way that would make everyone happy.

I told her I was listening...

She said she had her german shepard neutered and we could to the same for wolves.

I am just now picking myself up off the floor after 1/2 hour of rolling around laughing...

 

[THWAK1]

some lady on the "Center for Biological Diversity" facebook page posted that we are "jackwads" for hunting wolves and that we could effectively manage the population without hunting in a way that would make everyone happy.

I told her I was listening...

She said she had her german shepard neutered and we could to the same for wolves.

I am just now picking myself up off the floor after 1/2 hour of rolling around laughing...

LMAO! Some people...

 

[shoots-straight]

I wonder what the deer and moose populations were a hundred or two years ago? I've never hunted goats, but wished I had when I was younger. They have little to worry about where wolves are concerned.

Marcus Daly died November 12, 1900. The elk he transported had to have been moved sometime prior... I first learned about his elk transport years ago when the Daly Mansion Museum first opened. I remember seeing a photo display showing the elk during roundup and at Bitterroot train depots. Wish I could locate more of the story.

According to a Ravalli County Fish & Wildlife Association quote: "Though there was a nucleus of elk in the southeast portion of the Valley, the Club raised freight money to have over 100 Yellowstone elk shipped to the Bitterroot in 1912."
http://www.rcfwa.org/About_Us.aspx

"A nucleus" doesn't sound like many elk existed in the Bitterroot prior to 1912. Looks like we're headed back in that direction...

Grizz.... I've lived in the Root for more than 50 years. Grew up here. As a boy, I never heard any of the old-timers mention the Grizz. They are in the Mission mountains, in the Swan, and in the Bob. I suppose it may have been possible, and I'm open to persuasion.

Speaking of the Grizz.... back a few years ago (maybe 8-10), a Grizz was seen crossing Highway 93, the river, and was then seen headed northeast through hay fields in the Three Mile area between Stevensville and Florence. The bear was on a mission. Last it was seen was when it crossed into the Rock Creek drainage. I suspect it was headed back to Ovando/the Bob (where we suspect the greenies trapped it and illegally transported it to the Bitterroot, in an attempt to proclaim an indigenous or spontaneous population that needed protection). The bear didn't cooperate. BT

BeeTee, other than a photo, I'd have to say BS on Marcus Daly paying for a load of elk being brought to the Root.

Here's a segment from MTFW&P's page:

Early years of restoration
The local and national response to the elk crisis grew rapidly. Citizen conservationists formed local sportsmen’s clubs to raise funds and public awareness for restoring elk, and to push for further harvest restrictions and more enforcement. Out of this growing conservation movement came the state’s first elk transplant, in 1910, from Yellowstone National Park to Fleecer Mountain near Butte. Over the next three decades, a total of 1,753 elk from the park, Jackson Hole, and the National Bison Range in Moise were transplanted to several dozen sites in national forests to bolster elk numbers and speed the process of dispersing the animals into suitable habitat. In 1913, Montana established the Sun River Game Preserve, the first of several set up during the next decade to provide places where elk were safe from hunters and could graze on forage without competition from livestock.
The combination of regulated hunting seasons, transplants, and preserves were all elk needed. Montana’s population quickly grew to where the animals began overgrazing forage on some preserves and nearby private lands. For the first time in its short history, Montana was faced with a problem of having too many elk in some isolated areas. In 1937 Montana rancher Joe Greaves was acquitted of illegally shooting four elk that were feeding on his wheat crop. State laws resulting from the court case required the Fish and Game Department to assist landowners in reducing wildlife depredation losses. A few years later, however, after rancher C. R. Rathbone was arrested for killing elk damaging his property, the Montana Supreme Court ruled that landowners had to accept some depredation from elk and other wildlife. Caught between these two mandates was the Fish and Game Commission, which struggled to reconcile conflicting opinions among sportsmen, wildlife managers, and stockgrowers about what constituted suitable elk numbers and proper elk management.
While continuing to expand the elk range into new areas of the state, the Fish and Game Department decided to reduce conflicts between elk and ranchers in key areas by increasing the elk harvest and acquiring, from willing sellers, high-quality habitat that would keep elk from spending too much time on private lands. In 1940, the agency made its first significant purchase of big game winter range. Those 1,004 acres in the Little Belt Mountains were one of many acquisitions over the next half century that created a system of wildlife management areas, benefiting elk and other species, totaling more than 300,000 acres

For your reading pleasure:

http://fwp.mt.gov/mtoutdoors/HTML/articles/2007/ElkManagement.htm

As you can see the earliest transplants took place in 1910. Just as I posted.

As in most of all the elk range, elk prior to 1910 had just about been wiped out. During the time of Lewis and Clark though, millions ranged in Montana. The Bitterroot Valley was no exception.

If you lived in the Root for 50 years, then you should have known Lawrence Humble. He was quite old when I was a kid, but he was the last of the old long line trappers. According to him (and others) there were around 50 Griz trappers working the Selway taking dozens of Griz a season. They were worth a whole lot of dough in those days. The fat was used for a lot of things and was valuable. So was the hide, skull, and other parts.

My Grandad caught a sow, and cub on sunset bench, just out of Stevensville in the late 20's. He killed the sow, and took the cub to the University of Montana, where they used him for a mascot for awhile.

You don't sound like you knew the right "Old Timers".

http://www.fws.gov/pacific/news/grizzly/glizzlyQandA.htm

Were grizzly bears ever common in the Bitterroot Ecosystem?
Historically, the grizzly bear was a widespread inhabitant of the Bitterroot Mountains in central Idaho and western Montana. When Lewis and Clark traveled through the Bitterroot country in 1806, grizzly bears were abundant. They killed at least 7 grizzly bears including 1 female and 2 cubs while camped near present-day Kamiah, Idaho. Grizzly bears were common in central Idaho until the early 1900's. William Wright, a hunter and naturalist, wrote of killing dozens of grizzly bears over several years at the turn of the century in the Bitterroot Mountains. Conservative estimates indicate trappers and hunters killed 25 to 40 grizzly bears annually in the Bitterroot Mountains during the early 1900's. A major influx of hunters, trappers, and settlers at the turn of the century, and later sheepherders were responsible for direct mortality and elimination of grizzly bears from the Bitterroot Ecosystem.

Just to set the record straight!

 

[1_pointer]

The valley had a large Indian population here. I imagine that game was use to people and knew what risks they posed.

FWIW, some of the work done by Charles Kay in developing his Aboriginal Overkill Hypothesis involved charting animals sightings/sign against indian sightings/sign from the Lewis and Clark journals. His findings show a quite strong negative relationship between the two. Where they encountered indians there were few critters and vice versa. The talk I attended of his, he stated that he believed that is why the Expedition went hungry at times as they were relying on indians to help get them over the moutains. FWIW...

 

[ktowncamo]

Fin - I somehow missed the second episode on the 23rd. Any way to catch that somewhere online? (Youtube, Hulu, iTunes)

Thanks. Keep up the awesome program!

 

[VarmintHunterX]

Randy, I missed the wolf series. Will it be repeated on the sportsman channel or available somewhere else?