Once a spike, always a spike

[tjones]

No. You think you’re gonna make an impact while 1000 other people follow the regs? If you have a problem with what the bio recommends, take it up with those in charge. Don’t ask someone else to pass a deer this year so that YOU can shoot him next year.

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Where ya from Bill?

I don’t think you realize what guys do on this forum as far as recommendations to bios and the work they do on fish and game issues.

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

I think all the OP was getting at is that it's cool to see what a buck can be during his lifespan. If they have a chance at maturity on unmanaged land. For my family on Grandpas property back in PA we pass on all the young bucks since the early 90s minus the younger grandkids we let them harvest any legal animal they want. We do this not just hoping they become boone and Crockett bucks but because it's a great joy to watch them grow through the years and study them and track their patterns. It really is quite fascinating to watch and understand. Is a certain deer gonna be a loner recluse, a buck with serious attitude and a fighter, a girly buck who avoids confrontation at all costs, a socialite who runs around with all different groups, a curious explorer buck, a homebody that never leaves his core area, a leader, a follower, etc. Their personalities vary greatly and it's really cool to watch.
Growing up in the east I got to see all this with whitetail. There has been many bucks over the years that I actually would have a hard time harvesting because of the relationship and the cat and mouse you played over years of hunting them and if you do get lucky enough to harvest one the appreciation you feel for that animal is unmatched. Mule deer are much harder to try and have this relationship with and I think alot of westerners find it hard to understand these things about a whitetail hunter from the east. I have had many conversations with fellow hunters since I moved out west about this while they try to understand why I love whitetail hunting so much. Some understand and come around to it and a lot still just call them rats of the deer world.

 

[3855WIN]

On our place in NE La, our fawns are born around July. Their first year with antlers is usually a spike because they are still young deer.

 

[NEWHunter]

I spoke to one of our biologists, and no joke, they actually subscribed to the once a spike, always a spike falsehood. Seemed if you didn’t have their degree you couldn’t disagree.

 

[ImBillT]

I honestly didn’t realize that anyone actually believed that a deer could be a spike throughout maturity. In all the studies I’ve read, it’s unusual for a spike to still be a spike at 2.5. The only study I came across showing spikes well past 2.5yrs were the result of multi-generational line breeding. That said, most spike white tails have inferior potential for trophy racks compared to their non-spike peers.

If a fixed number of bucks is going to be harvested, sparing 1.5yr olds actually reduces the age class, by focusing harvest on older deer. The answer to improving age class is not to stop killing 1.5yr old bucks. It is to stop killing 2.5 and 3.5 year old bucks.

If a fixed number of bucks is going to be harvested, and rather than sparing 1.5yr olds, you spare spikes, then more of his 4pt+ 1.5yr old peers will be harvested than if spikes remained on the table. This is worse than passing all 1.5yr old bucks.

If you need to improve age class, then you should stop harvesting deer in the middle age classes, they are the ones that will be mature next year.

If you need more bucks, then you shouldn’t be harvesting bucks at all. Killing the biggest buck remaining while letting spikes walk in a situation where you don’t have enough bucks is going to do nothing positive.

The above statements are primarily valid for whitetails due to their high birth rates. Mule deer don’t usually need to have the lower age classes thinned because they don’t reproduce at the rate that whitetails do.

I’m actually not in favor of managing trophy quality beyond managing population, age class, and sex ratio. However, if you’re going to be managing for antler characteristics and the other criteria have already been met, then passing on spikes will do nothing positive. If you have not met those criteria first, then the decision on whether to kill the spike or not, should not be based on his antler quality.

There are a lot of valid reasons that no buck should be killed, but if a buck is going to be killed, choosing the spike is never a worse option than choosing any other buck available.

 

[ImBillT]

I spoke to one of our biologists, and no joke, they actually subscribed to the once a spike, always a spike falsehood. Seemed if you didn’t have their degree you couldn’t disagree.

That’s actually pretty sad.

 

[mtmiller]

Isn't there a Texas Forum somewhere on here?

 

[tzone]

I always got a kick out of that excuse. Usually used in TX for guys that wanted to shoot some deer. It's been proven wrong so many times that I'm not sure what it's still a thing...but it is.

 

[tzone]

Seem it before. Not 100% convinced that all of those pictures are the same deer, especially from 1.5 to 2.5. He has no eartag, so I would really like to know what identifying characteristics they used to identify him year to year ESPECIALLY from 1.5-2.5.

LMAO

 

[Muley_Stalker]

If the DOW sells me a buck tag. I'm shooting the first legal buck I have a good shot on. I don't give a nanoseconds thought to what trophy hunters want.

I only hunt public land and in complete solitude, so just finding a buck is challenging enough. It's much easier to find bucks in popular areas. Orange is not a color I want to see when hunting. For those who like antlers. I'll leave them on the ground for you where I park the Jeep.

 

[Dougfirtree]

Seem it before. Not 100% convinced that all of those pictures are the same deer, especially from 1.5 to 2.5. He has no eartag, so I would really like to know what identifying characteristics they used to identify him year to year ESPECIALLY from 1.5-2.5.

Spikes, and general heritability of antler characteristics, have been studied extensively in quite a few states, and especially TX. In a TX studs on low fence, free ranging deer in a huge area over a number of years, TPWD netted bucks from helicopters and measured and tagged them. I may miss the exact numbers but this is close. Only about 20% of deer that were spikes at 1.5yrs reached 140” or more in their peak year. About 80% of deer that had 6pts or more at 1.5yrs reached 140” or more in their peak year. Does the occasional spike make a great buck someday? Yep. Does every great looking yearling become a monster? Nope. BUT we have to let him age, and thus breed, to find out for sure. The question is, if you know that 80% of spike yearlings are mediocre at best(I would of course love a 140” whitetail) and 80% of 6pt yearlings will become great deer, how many does do you want that spike to breed before you find out he isn’t going to be a great buck? 1.5yrs of age is the easiest time to make the call IF you’re going to cull. If you’re at carrying capacity and have a good buck to do ratio, then SOME YEARLINGS HAVE TO BE KILLED to maintain age structure. If you have to kill a yearling buck, you’re obviously MUCH better off killing the spike.

Frankly, I’m all for shooting what you want to shoot, but if you’re going to manage deer for trophy quality, first you get to the population level you want, then you get close to 1:1 sex ratio(for whitetails), then you focus on age structure. With a 1:1 sex ratio, good age structure from 1.5-6.5, and a stable population you MUST kill yearling bucks. If you’re going to kill yearling bucks, you’re stupid to spare the spikes and kill the 6pts.

The photos are by Charles Alzheimer. He had an enclosed preserve where he raised and photographed deer. So, I'm pretty sure it's the same one.

 

[ImBillT]

The photos are by Charles Alzheimer. He had an enclosed preserve where he raised and photographed deer. So, I'm pretty sure it's the same one.

I’m not saying you’re wrong, but the article said “the family owned about 3000 acres” and “this buck was one of about 30 to 40 deer that stayed on the property. Herd numbers never got out of control due to severe winters and a healthy black bear and coyote population”. It did not mention that it was enclosed, and did not mention anything that would lead you to suspect such. I’m also not saying that they aren’t all the same deer. I’m just saying I’m not 100% certain.

What I do know is that with 30-40 deer, it’s not exactly easy to keep track of individuals without some good identifying features. It would be nice if some of those identifying features were mentioned. Particularly from 1.5yrs to 2.5yrs. His right spike is shorter than his left, and then his right eye guard is lower than his left at 2.5yrs, but then that relationship switches for most of the other pictures. He’s never even shown against the same background. They look more like good calendar pictures than like pictures that document an single bucks life.

I know a guy that’s friends with my in-laws with a one section high fence. He has double digit game cams on it and says that every year at least one person shoots a mature buck that he has never seen on his property before...in high fence. If you can have mature mystery bucks on 640 acres of high fence with double digit game cams and no predators, you can dang sure loose track of a 1.5yr old buck between dropping spikes and growing his 2.5yr antlers on 3000 acres with black bears and coyotes. A man’s name, no matter how highly regarded, is not proof that the 1.5yr old buck is in any of the other pictures. He may believe it, but until he explains and shows all of the identifying characteristics, it’s FAR from certain.

That may be the same deer. I never said it definitely wasn’t. I said I wasn’t 100% sure that it was. If it’s not, that completely invalidates any conclusion that can be drawn other than that those are beautiful photographs. I wish more information on his identification was included in that article or in a separate article.

It’s also misleading to title the thing From Buttons To Booner, when the deer never met B&C minimums IN SPITE OF RECEIVING SUPPLEMENTAL FEED. Not only that, I’d wager the 169” was gross. He would have some solid deductions with that asymmetrical frame.

I don’t understand the point of posting the article if it isn’t too suggest that shooting a spike is costing you a big buck in the future. That’s actually highly flawed. Managing a property or population for big bucks is a lot more complicated than “don’t shoot spike”. No you won’t be shooting any 1.5yr old booners and letting bucks get “older” can help, BUT if a buck is going to hit the ground, shooting a 1.5 year old hurts age structure less than shooting a 3.5-5.5 year old. If a 1.5yr old buck is going to hit the ground, shooting a 1-3pt instead of the 4-8pt standing beside him is going to hurt future antler size less. If the problem is that you don’t have enough bucks, you don’t need to be shooting ANY bucks.

Ever notice how one of the states with the best elk antler quality gives out spike tags like mad?

 

[sbhooper]

When I first moved onto the property where I live now, we saw lots of spikes. I live next to some public land, so the deer were hunted. The neighboring property was largely un-hunted, except for a few people. It is now leased by an outfitter. Over the last several years, there has been way more emphasis on taking a lot of does during our January season and also during the summer, on depredation permits (which I am fortunate enough to utilize).

As we knocked the population back quite a bit, I have seen fewer and fewer spiked bucks. I am seeing fewer real old does, also. I get a chance, over the summer especially, to look over a lot of deer-both old and young. My observation, now that the herd is getting to a better level, is that bucks with spikes are GENERALLY a deer that was born real late the year before. It is easy to tell one that is not in that category, by looking at body size and type of antler growth. A little common sense goes a long way, in determining which deer to take out and which to leave.

I can legally take any deer in the summer, but since the neighbor has an outfitter pay him a lot of money, I usually leave the bucks alone. HOWEVER, I do shoot some spikes, or culls that are obviously not going to develop into quality deer-which is what they are after. This management on the private land, plus a LOT of doe permits that can be used anywhere, seems to be lowering the incidents of spiked bucks. Just my observation based on this area. Every area is going to have its own nutritional issues etc.

A couple years back, I killed a white-tailed deer on a buddy's ranch. I thought that it was a big, mature doe and it turned out to be a buck with the smallest spikes that I have ever seen (about 1 1/2-2 inches). He definitely needed to be removed from the herd.

I have a hard time wrapping too much faith into a study of a captive deer herd, no matter where it is.

 

[ImBillT]

These pictures are from a SCIENTIFIC study. Every deer in the study was born in a pen, ear tagged, and in cases of uncertain parentage was DNA tested to confirm parentage. All deer in the study have a confirmed pedigree going back to 1974. The study ended 26yrs later in 1990.

https://tpwd.texas.gov/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_rp_w7000_0827.pdf

If don’t read the link, the last chart I included here is very telling.

 

[ImBillT]

When I first moved onto the property where I live now, we saw lots of spikes. I live next to some public land, so the deer were hunted. The neighboring property was largely un-hunted, except for a few people. It is now leased by an outfitter. Over the last several years, there has been way more emphasis on taking a lot of does during our January season and also during the summer, on depredation permits (which I am fortunate enough to utilize).

As we knocked the population back quite a bit, I have seen fewer and fewer spiked bucks. I am seeing fewer real old does, also. I get a chance, over the summer especially, to look over a lot of deer-both old and young. My observation, now that the herd is getting to a better level, is that bucks with spikes are GENERALLY a deer that was born real late the year before. It is easy to tell one that is not in that category, by looking at body size and type of antler growth. A little common sense goes a long way, in determining which deer to take out and which to leave.

I can legally take any deer in the summer, but since the neighbor has an outfitter pay him a lot of money, I usually leave the bucks alone. HOWEVER, I do shoot some spikes, or culls that are obviously not going to develop into quality deer-which is what they are after. This management on the private land, plus a LOT of doe permits that can be used anywhere, seems to be lowering the incidents of spiked bucks. Just my observation based on this area. Every area is going to have its own nutritional issues etc.

A couple years back, I killed a white-tailed deer on a buddy's ranch. I thought that it was a big, mature doe and it turned out to be a buck with the smallest spikes that I have ever seen (about 1 1/2-2 inches). He definitely needed to be removed from the herd.

I have a hard time wrapping too much faith into a study of a captive deer herd, no matter where it is.

Using a captive deer herd does nothing more than help you know what you’re studying so that some goober like me doesn’t say “I’m not sure those are the same deer”. In the study above, there were studying the heritability of antler characteristics and the effects of feed on antler characteristics.

The above study, pic included, shows two deer that were born in September. They had non-spike antlers at 1.5yrs and great antlers at 4.5.

Also, pic included again, they showed that spike antlered yearlings not only produced smaller antlers, but SMALLER BODY WEIGHTS, in all years. This is the reason for the myth that spike antlered bucks were born late. It’s simply not true.

TPWD has done helicopter netting and ear tagging to track free range bucks throughout their lives to combat the idea that a captive deer study is not valid. This of course results in the “massive ranches with controlled harvest cannot be compared to public land” response.

It has been scientifically proven that MOST OF THE TIME, a spike antlered buck is genetically inferior IN TERMS OF ANTLER QUALITY to his non-spike peers. There are outliers on the spike and non-spike side, BUT choosing to spare spikes is choosing to allow the 8/10 deer with inferior antler genetics to eat feed, take up space, and pass on their genes in order to spare those 2/10 superior deer.

 

[ImBillT]

I want to be clear though. I’m neither in favor of sparing the spike to allow the deer to become a trophy(which can happen but is unlikely) NOR killing the spike to cull genetics from a herd and have more trophies in the future. I’m in favor of letting the hunter shoot the animal he wants if the game department has decided that the population can handle it.

 

[BRaska]

I love big Spikes. You got a spike you don't want to use a tag on I'm your man. I am still hunting that one with 12 inch or better antlers the big Cow horn spike wall hanger. And yes I've watched many of them blossom into nice Bucks and some not I think it's a coin toss.