Nov 3 - Independents’ Day?

[mtmuley]

"Montana" has always been disappearing, ask any of our friends on the reservations. It has never been a static state, it is constantly in flux since white people first moved here for beaver pelts, gold, cattle, sheep, copper, wheat, skiing, breweries, fly fishing, amenity ranches, creationist museums, trophy hunts, data centers, etc. At the top of the stairs on the second floor of the State Capitol are statues of the leader of a vigilante lynch mob, Wilbur Sanders, next to a statue of one of the most vocal pacifists of the 20th century, Janette Rankin; two people who could not be more different. Which one is more "Montana"? Neither and both. Montana has constantly and always been disappearing and reappearing.

The entire theme of A.B. Guthrie Jr.'s The Big Sky is "man destroys the thing he loves." We've all loved Montana to death, in our own way.

Yep. You can go there. Recent developments here in Montana are different. Not sure the influx is of people that love Montana. mtmuley

 

[Elky Welky]

Not sure the influx is of people that love Montana.

They certainly love themselves more. But I think they love their perception of Montana as fostered by our current political climate, tv shows, tax structure, etc., and what all those things can do for them--which is certainly not the same love you and I have for this state.

 

[BrentD]

Yep. You can go there. Recent developments here in Montana are different. Not sure the influx is of people that love Montana. mtmuley

Maybe they just love it differently. Is that so bad?

 

[mtmuley]

They certainly love themselves more. But I think they love their perception of Montana as fostered by our current political climate, tv shows, tax structure, etc., and what all those things can do for them--which is certainly not the same love you and I have for this state.

Being a Montanan is something I'm proud of. Hate to see the rest of it. mtmuley

 

[406dn]

I dont agree - and while thats true of the dem party at large in Montana, its far from that nationally. You can see the typical tada and todo about "firsts" if you google much about some of the elected reps. I should have added - lots of time on "impeachment" - which will ultimately do nothing for the pocket books. As far as corruption - much like the epstein stuff - corruption only means something if you hold everyone (including some of your own) accountable. The credibility is there for anyone willing to stomach doing the right thing. I predict pandering and pretending there as well, instead of telling the truth.

Besides all of that - if we were to ever hope to bring fuel costs down (the driver of inflation), we'd need to build a lot of refineries. Im sure @406dn could explain better, but my understanding is that most refineries are set up for "light/sweet" crude where we produce mostly "heavy/sour" crude. I doubt highly that fuel costs come down with the new blue leadership, or expanded leadership, especially considering there are many elected reps that would like to "transition away" from the fossil fuel industry entirely in a hopelessly short term.

The refineries in Montana are set up for heavy sour crude. While they can refine some barrels of Bakken crude, they can't handle very much of it. This is one reason that the Keystone pipeline was pursued by the oil industry. There is a surplus both of heavy sour Canadian crude, and the very light sweet Bakken crude, regionally. The pipeline would have transported the crude, to the refineries on the Gulf coast, and internationally.

If there was a large profit to be made by building more refineries, they would have been built. The industry prefers by far, in expanding existing refineries. Gasoline demand in the USA is not really growing. Two reasons, largely, better milage from the cars on the road. Also, 10% or a bit more i mandated to be ethanol. A refinery won't refine additional barrels if they can't sell all of what is produced. Diesel demand is very tied to the economy, at large. That's why it has risen more than gasoline.

 

[mtmuley]

Maybe they just love it differently. Is that so bad?

Maybe not. I guess maybe I am biased having a history here. mtmuley

 

[BrentD]

Being a Montanan is something I'm proud of. Hate to see the rest of it. mtmuley

Interesting. But who is to say the new people are not proud of it, too. After all, they worked to get there. And if it is anything like I worked to get to back to Minnesota, it was goddamn hard. And effing expensive.

To me, it's much more impressive to have come from somewhere and gone to the effort to get to a new place and build a new life than it is to simply roll over and wake up alive and in the place you have known forever.

In fact, there is probably nothing that impresses me less as somebody bragging that they are a native born resident of whatever.

 

[mtmuley]

Interesting. But who is to say the new people are not proud of it, too. After all, they worked to get there. And if it is anything like I worked to get to back to Minnesota, it was goddamn hard. And effing expensive.

To me, it's much more impressive to have come from somewhere and gone to the effort to get to a new place and build a new life than it is to simply roll over and wake up alive and in the place you have known forever.

In fact, there is probably nothing that impresses me less as somebody bragging that they are a native born resident of whatever.

Brent, I can assure you that there are newcomers here that do not love Montana. The Covid refugees are still here. As far as being born in Montana, yep damn proud of it. And I have made a lot of sacrifices to.keep Montana my home and have and raised my family here. Impressive? Nope. mtmuley

 

[BrentD]

Brent, I can assure you that there are newcomers here that do not love Montana. The Covid refugees are still here. As far as being born in Montana, yep damn proud of it. mtmuley

Well, until I talk with them individually, I can not really say anything about any of them. It is not hard to find somebody who fails to love any given state. But talking about them as if they are a monotypic block, I think, is a big mistake.
I would hazard to say that most of those that are still there, probably like it, otherwise they would not still be there.

Maybe you should just put an arm around their shoulders and show 'em your idea of Montana. Maybe they will like your version even more, instead of feeling like you hate them, which is how a lot of newcomers feel in places they move too.

 

[mtmuley]

Well, until I talk with them individually, I can not really say anything about any of them. It is not hard to find somebody who fails to love any given state. But talking about them as if they are a monotypic block, I think, is a big mistake.
I would hazard to say that most of those that are still there, probably like it, otherwise they would not still be there.

Maybe you should just put an arm around their shoulders and show 'em your idea of Montana. Maybe they will like your version even more, instead of feeling like you hate them, which is how a lot of newcomers feel in places they move too.

Have a great evening. mtmuley

 

[Big Sky Guy]

Interesting. But who is to say the new people are not proud of it, too. After all, they worked to get there. And if it is anything like I worked to get to back to Minnesota, it was goddamn hard. And effing expensive.

To me, it's much more impressive to have come from somewhere and gone to the effort to get to a new place and build a new life than it is to simply roll over and wake up alive and in the place you have known forever.

In fact, there is probably nothing that impresses me less as somebody bragging that they are a native born resident of whatever.

Having moved here from Ohio taking less money to live in a state that was roughly 2X the cost of housing at the time, I can agree with this and also understand where @mtmuley is coming from. Looking at those born and raised here currently, I find it hard to see most of them finding a job that will support buying a house.

The pride in saying you are from Montana I believe dates back to the difficulty in making a living here? I think that still holds water, but with this current generation I don't think it will hold as much going forward. Historically Montana has always ranked pretty low for median income which in turn has made making a living here more difficult and gives credence to having more pride than other areas with higher paying/better job market. As one old timer put it to me when we first moved here, "Montana is a great place to live, but a terrible place to make a living." With tech and WFH opportunities I think that will change, but maybe not. Winters getting milder make it more enjoyable/less terrible for most people too. It's a bit laughable coming from Ohio when people use "Xth generation Montanan" as some sort of d!ck measuring contest, but I understand it and respect it now. Not many have stayed for one reason or another. People stay in Ohio because it's cheap and easy, so there really isn't any pride. My family farm was in our family for over 200 years but I do not know how many generations because, relatively speaking compared to Montana, it was easy for each owner to make a living there and keep it. No one in Ohio brags about being from Ohio, LOL. I don't think that's the case with Montana so it's not quite apples to apples.

I'm not familiar with Minnesota but would guess it is somewhere between Ohio and Montana as far as making a living and outdoor beauty (ironically it is on a map too I get it).

 

[BrentD]

Have a great evening. mtmuley

Always, but buy a newbie a beer soon.

 

[mtmuley]

I have. mtmuley

 

[Nick87]

Having moved here from Ohio taking less money to live in a state that was roughly 2X the cost of housing at the time, I can agree with this and also understand where @mtmuley is coming from. Looking at those born and raised here currently, I find it hard to see most of them finding a job that will support buying a house.

The pride in saying you are from Montana I believe dates back to the difficulty in making a living here? I think that still holds water, but with this current generation I don't think it will hold as much going forward. Historically Montana has always ranked pretty low for median income which in turn has made making a living here more difficult and gives credence to having more pride than other areas with higher paying/better job market. As one old timer put it to me when we first moved here, "Montana is a great place to live, but a terrible place to make a living." With tech and WFH opportunities I think that will change, but maybe not. Winters getting milder make it more enjoyable/less terrible for most people too. It's a bit laughable coming from Ohio when people use "Xth generation Montanan" as some sort of d!ck measuring contest, but I understand it and respect it now. Not many have stayed for one reason or another. People stay in Ohio because it's cheap and easy. I don't think that's the case with Montana so it's not quite apples to apples.

I'm not familiar with Minnesota but would guess it is somewhere between Ohio and Montana as far as making a living and outdoor beauty (ironically it is on a map too I get it).

Pretty good explanation, from my view anyhow.

 

[mtmuley]

The pride in saying you are from Montana I believe dates back to the difficulty in making a living here?

I don't think it is that at all. The pride for me is my family has been here a long time. Dryland wheat farmers and oil workers up near Canada. Money isn't a thing about why I am proud to be a Montanan. mtmuley

 

[Elky Welky]

The pride in saying you are from Montana I believe dates back to the difficulty in making a living here?

I share that pride (4th Generation Montanan! Born in Bozeman! Not many who can say that!).

I would say that is part of it, but not the whole part of it. I could go anywhere else and make significantly more money, afford a home, and maybe even find a girlfriend. But unlike some, I didn't just roll out of bed and stay here. I went to two colleges out of state, commercial fished every summer, studied and taught abroad, and then made the conscious choice to come back to Montana and do what I needed to simply afford to live here because it is such an important place to me. I think there are many who leave and then spend the rest of their lives trying to come back. Those that do are quite proud. However, I don't think the difficulty of eking out a living here is the only source of that pride.

Montana is legitimately awesome. We're all proud of that. And the unique experiences I had growing up here cannot be replicated (heading to elk camp for my 30th year on Friday). Another part is there simply aren't that many of us. It's that ancient need to be part of a tribe.

There are a myriad of other reasons, but at the end of the day, I see no issue with being proud to have been born and raised in a particular place. It doesn't make someone inherently "better" than anyone else, but it is a part of their story. The world would be better off if more people appreciated their roots.

 

[Treeshark]

and maybe even find a girlfriend.

Ok, that hooked me. How is it harder to get laid in Montana than other states again?