Non-resident outfitter license (MT) Bill is up for hearing 2/2/2021 (SB 143)

[antlerradar]

Not every farmer or rancher stands in line with a hand out. mtmuley

My family has also shied away form the Government programs. Sadly it is getting harder and harder to make ends meet without taking the money.

Very true...but its not one or two that have collected 425 billion in the last 25 years either.

EWG's Farm Subsidy Database

EWG's Farm Subsidy Database put the issue on the map and is driving reform. Just ten percent of America's largest and richest farms collect almost three-fourths of federal farm subsidies; cash payments that often harm the environment.

farm.ewg.org

For the record, I'm not opposed to the subsidies...just well past over the hypocrisy of the recipients.

Far too much of that money is sent to "farmers" with a Manhattan, NY address.

 

[mtmuley]

My family has also shied away form the Government programs. Sadly it is getting harder and harder to make ends meet with out taking the money.

Far too much of that money is sent to "farmers with a Manhattan, NY address.

I hear you. Been around agriculture my whole life. It's easy to sit behind a keyboard and judge someone. mtmuley

 

[antlerradar]

I hear you. Been around agriculture my whole life. It's easy to sit behind a keyboard and judge someone. mtmuley

Some times I get a good chuckle from some of the people behind the keyboard though.

 

[mtmuley]

Some times I get a good chuckle out of some of the people behind the keyboard though.

Agreed. Today even. mtmuley

 

[Wildabeest]

Would you rather see unregulated business thrive in the state than a regulated one? That is what we've seen since passage of I-161. The license were available basically unlimited over the counter for years, and hunt clubs and illegal outfitters had their way with "our wildlife".

How is what just happened going to cut down on illegal outfitting? By denying tags to unguided hunters? So screw the thousands of us doing this legally to limit the very few who hunt with unlicensed guides. Yeah, sounds like a much better idea than enforcing laws. Sorry, but this newest rationalization just further shows how far you have to grasp at straws to attempt to justify this turd.

 

[Mtnhunter1]

Dumpster Fire, all the way around.

MOGA members and their associates, play to win. They have the advantage of being several moves ahead on the chess board.

 

[Kiwi]

Ive read a lot of this tread but still not sure of the impact to my MT 2022 hunt. Will my chances of drawing a non resident combo be effected if I have 3 points?

 

[Mtnhunter1]

Ive read a lot of this tread but still not sure of the impact to my MT 2022 hunt. Will my chances of drawing a non resident combo be effected if I have 3 points?

"Should" be fine with 3 next year but may be more if you want to return again.

 

[Eric Albus]

Ive read a lot of this tread but still not sure of the impact to my MT 2022 hunt. Will my chances of drawing a non resident combo be effected if I have 3 points?

3pts will be 100%.

 

[sacountry]

I disagree. This industry has shown repeatedly that an agreed upon “finite” amount isn’t “enough” when they aren’t as profitable as they expected to be when they agreed to a number.

“Enough” is reflective of their hoped for financial benefit and isn’t tied to what the resource can handle or how it affects other shareholders of the resource.
Private profit from a public resource is not a priority. It may be a positive benefit that is accommodated by a well managed resource, but when profit is prioritized, both the resource and other shareholders are allowed to(and expected to)suffer in order for those who exploit the resource for profit to be “successful.”

Finite in the alcohol industry ....is as in there are no more once the limit is established. If you want an outfitter license with a guaranteed NR Combo tag, maybe two, then go find an outfitter willing to sell theirs because there aren't anymore available. Imagine the consolidation that would occur in the outfitter industry. I think taking the alcohol license approach makes lots of sense.

 

[Eric Albus]

How is what just happened going to cut down on illegal outfitting? By denying tags to unguided hunters? So screw the thousands of us doing this legally to limit the very few who hunt with unlicensed guides. Yeah, sounds like a much better idea than enforcing laws. Sorry, but this newest rationalization just further shows how far you have to grasp at straws to attempt to justify this turd.

How’d they get those jail birds out to collect signatures? If that’s what happened at least they were gainfully employed instead of collecting welfare.... right?

Complaining about a “sleazy process” after HB-637.....? Hold tight, I gotta look for a meme. Found it!
View attachment 182246

you have a point, at least they were employed.

 

[Wildabeest]

3pts will be 100%.

It’ll be interesting to see if this impacts how many non-guided NR’s apply. They’ve essentially doubled the cost of a point and diluted its value. I’m certainly on the fence about whether the quality justifies the cost of having to buy in to the draw at increased cost for 3 years to get a general tag. It was a better value when you had a decent chance of drawing with one or two points and they cost less. Maybe it still is a decent value and I’m just pissed. Time will tell.

 

[NativeHunter20]

I am having a hard time understanding why all the resistance for bills that help outfitters. I know many outfitters and they work their butts off to make a living. They are small MT business owners that are a huge part of our tourist economy. Without some sort of ability to get licenses for non-resident clients it doesn't take a genius to see they would go under at the rate that non-residents are applying and overwhelming our beautiful state. If you are a Montana resident you should be supporting them as they pump a ton of money in our economy. As a resident hunter and Native American, I can tell you that the non-resident hunters are taking over many areas we used to hunt. I wished they were hunting on ranches and wilderness areas with guides instead of on my favorite block management properties or other public places. From what I have witnessed, Outfitters manage ranches and allow those bucks to reach maturity. I don't see that on the reservation. I don't see that on most public places. I know many hunters who have benefitted from a neighboring ranch that is outfitted. I am grateful to the outfitters I have used in the past in Canada and Alaska. They are needed and are a critical part of their states economy, just as they are here in Montana. That's where I have a hard time understanding the hate and intolerance of good people trying to make a living. At times I hear horrible stories of bad outfitters doing this or that. We've all heard the bad cop stories but a far majority of them are good people. I feel the same is for outfitters. A far majority of them are good, hardworking people. And I know none of them that are getting rich. If they weren't good people, they would not last in the business. Let's support Outfitters so that the good ones can stay in business and help our small communities. We need them. I for one would sure rather see non-residents hunting with guides than on their own. My opinion.

 

[Mkamman]

I am having a hard time understanding why all the resistance for bills that help outfitters. I know many outfitters and they work their butts off to make a living. They are small MT business owners that are a huge part of our tourist economy. Without some sort of ability to get licenses for non-resident clients it doesn't take a genius to see they would go under at the rate that non-residents are applying and overwhelming our beautiful state. If you are a Montana resident you should be supporting them as they pump a ton of money in our economy. As a resident hunter and Native American, I can tell you that the non-resident hunters are taking over many areas we used to hunt. I wished they were hunting on ranches and wilderness areas with guides instead of on my favorite block management properties or other public places. From what I have witnessed, Outfitters manage ranches and allow those bucks to reach maturity. I don't see that on the reservation. I don't see that on most public places. I know many hunters who have benefitted from a neighboring ranch that is outfitted. I am grateful to the outfitters I have used in the past in Canada and Alaska. They are needed and are a critical part of their states economy, just as they are here in Montana. That's where I have a hard time understanding the hate and intolerance of good people trying to make a living. At times I hear horrible stories of bad outfitters doing this or that. We've all heard the bad cop stories but a far majority of them are good people. I feel the same is for outfitters. A far majority of them are good, hardworking people. And I know none of them that are getting rich. If they weren't good people, they would not last in the business. Let's support Outfitters so that the good ones can stay in business and help our small communities. We need them. I for one would sure rather see non-residents hunting with guides than on their own. My opinion.

Uh no

 

[Mtnhunter1]

Let's support Outfitters so that the good ones can stay in business and help our small communities. We need them. I for one would sure rather see non-residents hunting with guides than on their own. My opinion.

@NativeHunter20........welcome to HT! I think that you are going to make an impact here!!

 

[Hunting Wife]

I am having a hard time understanding why all the resistance for bills that help outfitters. I know many outfitters and they work their butts off to make a living. They are small MT business owners that are a huge part of our tourist economy. Without some sort of ability to get licenses for non-resident clients it doesn't take a genius to see they would go under at the rate that non-residents are applying and overwhelming our beautiful state. If you are a Montana resident you should be supporting them as they pump a ton of money in our economy. As a resident hunter and Native American, I can tell you that the non-resident hunters are taking over many areas we used to hunt. I wished they were hunting on ranches and wilderness areas with guides instead of on my favorite block management properties or other public places. From what I have witnessed, Outfitters manage ranches and allow those bucks to reach maturity. I don't see that on the reservation. I don't see that on most public places. I know many hunters who have benefitted from a neighboring ranch that is outfitted. I am grateful to the outfitters I have used in the past in Canada and Alaska. They are needed and are a critical part of their states economy, just as they are here in Montana. That's where I have a hard time understanding the hate and intolerance of good people trying to make a living. At times I hear horrible stories of bad outfitters doing this or that. We've all heard the bad cop stories but a far majority of them are good people. I feel the same is for outfitters. A far majority of them are good, hardworking people. And I know none of them that are getting rich. If they weren't good people, they would not last in the business. Let's support Outfitters so that the good ones can stay in business and help our small communities. We need them. I for one would sure rather see non-residents hunting with guides than on their own. My opinion.

There are 113 pages of folks laying out the reasoning for all the resistance.

TL;DR...No hate for people trying to make a living in a free market. Hate for socialist handouts of public trust resources for certain small businesses while denouncing welfare and bailouts for anyone else.

 

[RobertD]

Without some sort of ability to get licenses for non-resident clients it doesn't take a genius to see they would go under at the rate that non-residents are applying and overwhelming our beautiful state...

This statement contradicts itself somewhat. The non-resident client can obtain a license and select an outfitter if they need one. If the outfitter can't convince the client to use their services, that is their problem; it's not the responsibility of Montana tax payers, Montana hunters or NR hunters to subsidize them. That's the argument being made by most in this thread.

If NRs are "applying and overwhelming" Montana, then the customer base is there. It's their job to win those customers' dollars. Competent outfitters won't struggle to do so.

As a resident hunter and Native American, I can tell you that the non-resident hunters are taking over many areas we used to hunt. I wished they were hunting on ranches and wilderness areas with guides instead of on my favorite block management properties or other public places.

I wish no one applied for pronghorn tags in NM and I could buy them OTC as leftovers. Just because people are getting smart enough (read: using OnX and GoHunt) to find the honey holes doesn't mean we can just start implementing laws to curtail their access. Note the word "public" in your comment.

Also, welcome to Hunt Talk. I appreciate your perspective and agree with some of what you said. I don't hate outfitters, I just don't see why they should be subsidized at the expense of those who would just like to get out and hunt.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I am having a hard time understanding why all the resistance for bills that help outfitters. I know many outfitters and they work their butts off to make a living. They are small MT business owners that are a huge part of our tourist economy. Without some sort of ability to get licenses for non-resident clients it doesn't take a genius to see they would go under at the rate that non-residents are applying and overwhelming our beautiful state. If you are a Montana resident you should be supporting them as they pump a ton of money in our economy. As a ranches and allow those bucks to reach maturity. I don't see that on the reservation. I don't see that on most public places. I know many hunters who have benefitted from a neighboring ranch that is outfitted. I am grateful to the outfitters I have used in the past in Canada and Alaska. They are needed and are a critical part of their states economy, just as they are here in Montana. That's where I have a hard time understanding the hate and intolerance of good people need them. I for one would sure rather see non-residents hunting with guides than on their own. My opinion.

There are 113 pages of folks laying out the reasoning for all the resistance.

TL;DR...No hate for people trying to make a living in a free market. Hate for socialist handouts of public trust resources for certain small businesses while denouncing welfare and bailouts for anyone else.

Sure glad I waited to post for a couple minutes. You said everything I was about to say.

Disagreement and disgust over the practices of an industry that exploits a public resource for profit isn’t hate for hard working people.
We all work hard. Most of us don’t expect the government to give us priority over everyone else just because we are in business.
Personally, I don’t need outfitters. If they didn’t exist my hunting opportunity would be pretty much the same. I recognize others may need them or prefer to use their services. That’s totally acceptable for me. What isn’t acceptable is the entitlement mentality entrenched throughout the industry that causes many of them to believe their services are so vital and their businesses so important that we all should be grateful they exist and happily allow them to take priority in resource exploitation.

 

[huntin24/7]

I’ve been around agriculture my whole life with lots of family and friends as farmers/ranchers. I rarely have a problem with subsidies. It’s unfortunately necessary to a large degree for a lot of operations to succeed anymore. Although, I do get bothered by the hypocrisy fairly often from those, some that are close to me, that complain about every other hand out that other groups get while they themselves aren’t afraid to accept them.

 

[sacountry]

At least the Governor who is the last defense against implementing 637 is solid and has never been charged with anything. We have that going for us.

signed, Snarky McSnarkerson