Non-resident outfitter license (MT) Bill is up for hearing 2/2/2021 (SB 143)

[Big Shooter]

Aren’t we past the 40% allocation already or did I miss something? The amendments got rid of that and created an early draw. I don’t see a ton of harm in the bill now. It would allow anyone to put in for the early draw if they pay an extra $300 and also allow outfitters to find out earlier if they will have some clients. If the bill passes with those amendments i won’t have any heartburn. It’s similar to Wyoming’s system and I like it. $300 extra isn’t a ton of money and Montana is still going to sell out of NR tags.

So Carnage gets it I guess.

 

[BuzzH]

I think it's a much bigger crapshoot than any one wants to acknowledge. I believe one of Eric's guides doesn't even live in MT. I'm sure there are other guides that don't live in MT either but just come for the fall for a couple hunts, so how can their financial impact be better than a NR who buys a cabin in MT and lives there a couple months out of the year?

The economic impact taking priority over everything else is a terrible notion, It's regretful to think we can boil down our heritage and traditions, our wild places and wild life to nothing more than a dollar figure and who gets what cut of it...but at this point it seems like it's the only argument MOGA has....or at least the only one they think they can win.

Do all of the outfitters in Montana...live in Montana?

 

[Point Creep]

Riddle me this.......who’s forcing a nonresident that wants a reasonable chance at hunting Montana to book with an

So Carnage gets it I guess.

OK so wait up.. I haven't been following this ridiculously massive sting of details ..

Is this true, see Carnage post above, that it's now basically modeled as an early draw that anybody can do for $300 extra?

What's the hang up with this? By who?

 

[Carnage2011]

OK so wait up.. I haven't been following this ridiculously massive sting of details ..

Is this true, see Carnage post above, that it's now basically modeled as an early draw that anybody can do for $300 extra?

What's the hang up with this? By who?

The arguments that I’ve seen against it are that it caters to the wealthy. I say that’s BS...if $300 makes or breaks your ability to apply then you probably couldn’t afford the actual hunt. Not to mention you can still apply for the regular priced tags.

 

[Schaaf]

OK so wait up.. I haven't been following this ridiculously massive sting of details ..

Is this true, see Carnage post above, that it's now basically modeled as an early draw that anybody can do for $300 extra?

What's the hang up with this? By who?

Yes. That's what the bill is right now. I don't understand why we've had 40 additional pages arguing about whether a DIY or Guided guy pays more into the local economy.

Anyone interested in buying a bumper sticker?

 

[BT_NVhunter]

OK so wait up.. I haven't been following this ridiculously massive sting of details ..

Is this true, see Carnage post above, that it's now basically modeled as an early draw that anybody can do for $300 extra?

What's the hang up with this? By who?

Yeah I was under the impression this was still cutting the NR pool for the tags for the said early draw?

 

[Point Creep]

The arguments that I’ve seen against it are that it caters to the wealthy. I say that’s BS...if $300 makes or breaks your ability to apply then you probably couldn’t afford the actual hunt. Not to mention you can still apply for the regular priced tags.

Yep I’m for that. Then add in a few more changes, move deer season up 2 weeks and cut the last 3 off the end. Double all resident license prices and also make them front the permit application fees for moose sheep goat.

 

[Beignet]

Aren’t we past the 40% allocation already or did I miss something? The amendments got rid of that and created an early draw. I don’t see a ton of harm in the bill now. It would allow anyone to put in for the early draw if they pay an extra $300 and also allow outfitters to find out earlier if they will have some clients. If the bill passes with those amendments i won’t have any heartburn. It’s similar to Wyoming’s system and I like it. $300 extra isn’t a ton of money and Montana is still going to sell out of NR tags.

Why not just do the whole dang draw earlier so outfitters can plan accordingly? Heck, charge more for everyone’s NR tags too. The creation of a special VIP allocation of tags for those willing to pay extra leaves a bad taste though.

 

[Carnage2011]

Yep I’m for that. Then add in a few more changes, move deer season up 2 weeks and cut the last 3 off the end. Double all resident license prices and also make them front the permit application fees for moose sheep goat.

Sign me up for all the above!

 

[Hunt West]

Yep I’m for that. Then add in a few more changes, move deer season up 2 weeks and cut the last 3 off the end. Double all resident license prices and also make them front the permit application fees for moose sheep goat.

I could be wrong but I think the push back on the amended version is from the bills writer. I believe the statement I heard/read was along the lines of “the original bill or no bill at all”

 

[Carnage2011]

Why not just do the whole dang draw earlier so outfitters can plan accordingly? Heck, charge more for everyone’s NR tags too. The creation of a special VIP allocation of tags for those willing to pay extra leaves a bad taste though.

You act like it only allows outfitters to plan accordingly. If the entire draw was in January that would be great...it would allow everyone to plan accordingly. I bet some people would sit out of the AZ,UT,NM, and CO draws if they already knew they had a MT tag. Not everyone, but some would.
There is nothing special or VIP about it. Anyone can apply...it doesn’t cater to anyone. If hunting MT is a priority for a NR they can throw in an extra $300. If it’s just a fallback plan then wait until March and pay the regular fee.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

How does the current form of the bill effect the pref points.

Seems even murkier why you would buy one.

Also say someone just wants to hunt the breaks. Does that mean you can apply early for $300, and then take a refund when you don't draw a permit.

You're out another $60 but guaranteed to clear the first hurdle and you don't need to buy a pref point?

Simply trying to wrap my head around how this system will play out.

The Montana draw... guys it works great I don't know what your talking about...

 

[brocksw]

Do all of the outfitters in Montana...live in Montana?

No, that's the point?

 

[El Jason]

The arguments that I’ve seen against it are that it caters to the wealthy. I say that’s BS...if $300 makes or breaks your ability to apply then you probably couldn’t afford the actual hunt. Not to mention you can still apply for the regular priced tags.

I am going to disagree with you here. You’re paying money to potentially move into a preferential pool. Ergo, money to get more exclusive access. Not saying $300 is a deal breaker, but the principle is bullshit.

Montana holds reign over the lost convoluted and #@)(*%* up NR system there is. You’d think a room full of drunks engineered this thing. Bonus points. Preference points. Math is tooo hard so we need set asides. Oh wait, let’s have a first draw and a second draw. All the while the same 40 year old antiquated system of hunter dispersement keeps chugging along.

For Heaven’s sake, make NR apply for a HD (or cluster of) and revamp the shit show of a process going on right now. This is like throwing car tires on top of the single wide rooftop and calling it remodeling. What a joke.

 

[brocksw]

OK so wait up.. I haven't been following this ridiculously massive sting of details ..

Is this true, see Carnage post above, that it's now basically modeled as an early draw that anybody can do for $300 extra?

What's the hang up with this? By who?

I'm under the impression that reps in opposition to the bill proposed those amendments. The MOGA clan is against the bill as its currently written and still want the outfitter set asides.

Correct me if I'm wrong by all means.

 

[BT_NVhunter]

I'm under the impression that reps in opposition to the bill proposed those amendments. The MOGA clan is against the bill as its currently written and still want the outfitter set asides.

Correct me if I'm wrong by all means.

Ok so we’re not past the 40%. That’s what I thought.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I am going to disagree with you here. You’re paying money to potentially move into a preferential pool. Ergo, money to get more exclusive access. Not s$300 is a deal breaker, but the principal is bullshit.

Montana holds reign over the lost convoluted and #@)(*%* up NR system there is. You’d think a room full of drunks engineered this things. Bonus points. Preference points. Math is tooo hard so we need set asides. Oh wait, let’s have a first draw and a second draw. All the while the same 40 year old antiquated system of hunter dispersement keeps chugging along.

For Heaven’s sake, make NR apply for a HD (or cluster of) and revamp the shit show of a process going on right now. This is like throwing car tires on top of the single wide rooftop and calling it remodeling. What a joke.

I like your comment better than my pic... but yeah... ^ what he said.

 

[Beignet]

You act like it only allows outfitters to plan accordingly. If the entire draw was in January that would be great...it would allow everyone to plan accordingly. I bet some people would sit out of the AZ,UT,NM, and CO draws if they already knew they had a MT tag. Not everyone, but some would.
There is nothing special or VIP about it. Anyone can apply...it doesn’t cater to anyone. If hunting MT is a priority for a NR they can throw in an extra $300. If it’s just a fallback plan then wait until March and pay the regular fee.

All said, it’s not the end of the world. To be honest, I’ve kind of already braced myself for having to pony up the extra if I want to prioritize hunting back in MT (as long as I remain an NR, anyway). I’ve got a few points in two other states for a “maybe someday” thing, but I mostly just enjoy the opportunity to hunt some of my old stomping grounds with a few good friends every few years.

Still, I don’t love the idea of paying for a priority spot in an ostensibly egalitarian pursuit (I know, hunting = egalitarian is naive). FWP could charge every NR an extra $150, draw in January, and make more than they would charging 40% the $300. Then they could use the extra to buy some big mule deer from Colorado or someplace and stock ‘em in Region 2 so all the guys from the eastern part of the state can stop complaining about seeing Missoula tags every November.

 

[Carnage2011]

I am going to disagree with you here. You’re paying money to potentially move into a preferential pool. Ergo, money to get more exclusive access. Not s$300 is a deal breaker, but the principal is bullshit.

Montana holds reign over the lost convoluted and #@)(*%* up NR system there is. You’d think a room full of drunks engineered this things. Bonus points. Preference points. Math is tooo hard so we need set asides. Oh wait, let’s have a first draw and a second draw. All the while the same 40 year old antiquated system of hunter dispersement keeps chugging along.

For Heaven’s sake, make NR apply for a HD (or cluster of) and revamp the shit show of a process going on right now. This is like throwing car tires on top of the single wide rooftop and calling it remodeling. What a joke.

I don’t disagree with you at all. Montana’s nonresident system is a definite joke. However, I don’t believe this bull as amended is the deal breaker that people are claiming. The “special” draw for the extra $300 could in all reality have worse odds than the normal draw (I understand that the people who don’t draw will go into the normal draw). It happens from time to time in Wyoming. It could potentially provide more money for access, as amended.

Im not really hung up on the principle of it. We aren’t setting aside a majority of tags for any specific group. It’s a personal choice...do you want to pay the extra $ for the potential of better odds? Or throw in the normal for less money? To me it’s no different than how I plan my hunts every year. Some years I don’t have a ton of plans so I put in for Idaho and New Mexico. Other years I stick to MT and Colorado.

With all that being said. I help apply a few friends in MT and it’s the worst NR system out there bar none. I’m not saying this is a great bill that does anything substantial for Nonresidents, but I’m not concerned about it as is. I do think it could make draw odds lower for Montana as more people apply in the early draw before other states come out.

Based on this legislative session id say this bill as amended is the least of our worries. If we get out of here without HB505 and some of the other shit bills making it then we can chalk that up in the win column.

 

[Carnage2011]

Ok so we’re not past the 40%. That’s what I thought.

Yes we are. It was amended out. MOGA may not like it, but as it currently sits there are no outfitter set asides. It can be amended back in but that isn’t currently the case.