Mule Deer four-point rule in Montana

[Redwood]

I'll be the first to admit that I'm a horn hunter. With the time and money I spend every year I could get grade aged angus and have piles of time to eat it. I go out and look for stompers which means I shoot very few bucks/bulls. I don't have a good recipe for horn and they don't get much bigger hanging in the garage. As I believe we can all agree the muley pop is low and the big boys are getting harder and harder to find; lets just focus on them. What happens if you only can shoot a muley buck every other year. You still get to hunt for horn every year, just not muley. A general muley buck tag becomes a draw with a 50 percent odds, hell to start make it 75. If you hunt for meat you still have lots of opportunities and if you hunt for horn you do as well. Mule deer pop gets a little less pressure, age structure and quality should increase. I don't want them here but nr would be more inclined to purchase tags, of which don't currently sell out. This would ease some of the financial burdens. Obviously there will be some issues; pissy hunters and logistics to set this in motion. But again something needs to be done, trying to please everyone pleases no one. Thoughts...

 

[tjones]

Redwood have you or are you?

A member of your local sportsmen group or the MWF?
Spoken to a area FWP bio about your thoughts and concerns?
Spoken to a region wildlife manager about your thoughts and concerns?
Spoken to a FWP Commissioner about your thoughts and concerns?
Sent in comments during the recent FWP scoping period?
Suggested changes during past season setting tentative meetings?
Suggested changes during the past biannual season setting process?
Read the MT FWP mule deer Adaptive Harvest Management Plan?

 

[sbhooper]

I have never hunted Montana, but have always wondered in this day and age how you can manage a hunting season that is that long and liberal. If people want a chance at a long season where you can use any weapon, then why not make the difficult areas open and change the more accessible units to limited draw units where you pick your weapon? If people want the option of the liberal season, then there is nothing wrong with them having to work for it. Making people select their weapon really helps spread out the pressure, also.

The killing of lots of doe mule deer can be problematic, too. Mulies are a lot harder to manage than white-tails because they are not nearly as prolific. If deer are having a tough time, then the first thing to do is make sure that you are not over-harvesting the producers.

Antler restrictions are not the answer for several reasons. For one, you have a certain amount of waste where animals are shot and then left when it is determined that they are not legal. Also, if there are antler restrictions, you end up with deficient "illegal" deer doing the breeding, If there are restrictions on antlers and no antlerless options, then people that like to eat deer (like me) go home with nothing if they can't find an older deer. I hate to eat tags.

Here in Nebraska, it is ridiculous to shoot little bucks because there is a lot of opportunity to kill antlerless deer. I don't need antlers anymore and love the antlerless hunts. HOWEVER, I spent a number of years in NM and hunted only mz. It was buck only hunting and difficult. It was way more important for me to get some deer meat than worry about the size of the head gear. At that time, it was over-the-counter, but due to the primitive (back when it was still primitive with no scopes etc.) nature of the hunt, the pressure on the animal was limited and the hunt was really a good hunt.

The habitat issues are always a concern with deer, too. Probably one of the best things that have happened recently for the mule deer are the big forest fires. It will be interesting to see what those areas do in the future.

There is no easy fix when it comes to balancing trophy quality with opportunity. Game departments bottom line is funding. In most cases, this funding is provided by license sales. It is in their best interest to provide the most opportunity that is possible. The amount of trophy hunters is far out-weighed by the numbers of people that just want to go hunting and hopefully bring back some meat.

The Nebraska Game and Parks does not even know the meaning of "trophy". Fortunately, if you want a trophy deer, there are some around, so the opportunity exists. They strictly want to provide opportunity to go hunting and luckily, there is also a chance at a trophy buck about anywhere in the state. In fact, there are some huge mulies killed every year. Trophies are not a management objective here, but instead are a bi-product of the management objective.

 

[shoots-straight]

We've went over this so many times in the last 20 years it's very old hat to me.

20 years ago the mule deer crashed. We had over 400,000 and lost a third or more. (We now are sitting a little over 200,000).

Anyway, the department told us back then, that when they knew the crash would come, they issued an over abundance of tags, many people would kill 5 does each in much of Montana. I testified that the only sure crash was caused by lead poisoning, and asked why the private lands survived the crash so much better. Public land is where much of the slaughters take place.

I also asked that if you knew many deer would die and offered 10 fold in tags, how would you know that the deer you killed were the ones that would die any way.

We create the valleys in the deer cycle by the biology that's taught to our people managing the herds for us. IMO they use what they learn from the books to some degree. Common sense, and the life long experience that hunters had to share weren't used much. I think that has changed somewhat now.

I also testified that we should try doing something different because what we were doing wasn't working, so I offered an alternative to the "kill em to save em" method. I said if we knew the "CRASH" was coming, then maybe we should offer less tags, not more, and maybe more of those deer that normally get shot would survive and the population valleys wouldn't get so low. I said I even had a name for this new style, I called it "Management" of our big game.

I really didn't make a lot of friends at that summit.

If you want more and bigger deer it's easy.

1) Stop killing does until the deer herd reaches the max objective. Dont issue tags just to drop the numbers arbitrarily. There should be evidence of range depletion before that happens.

2) Limit motorized accessibility to bucks using the high country, and limit tags to those in the low ag areas. Landowners get a certain amount of the limited entry tags in Montana, and that should be incentive enough for them to house a few.

3). Stop the poaching, and get involved. It astounding at the numbers of game stole from us each year. We need to change attitudes to do that. Hold your local County attorneys accountable for slaps on the wrist on this maggots.

4). If you want or need a deer to fill the freezer, and have whitetails in the area, kill one of those. They eat far better than mule deer anyway. To many people think that they just have the God given right to a fork horn every year. There's to many people living in mule deer country now for that to happen and grow deer with any age diversity.

5). Join a local sportsman's group. Your voice isn't large enough alone. I know that most hunters are loners by nature, but you might even meet a friend or two. There is some comfort in knowing your making a difference.

Bitching on the Internet does nothing. It does however make for good conversation.

 

[sreekers]

If you want more and bigger deer it's easy.

1) Stop killing does until the deer herd reaches the max objective. Dont issue tags just to drop the numbers arbitrarily. There should be evidence of range depletion before that happens.

2) Limit motorized accessibility to bucks using the high country, and limit tags to those in the low ag areas. Landowners get a certain amount of the limited entry tags in Montana, and that should be incentive enough for them to house a few.

3). Stop the poaching, and get involved. It astounding at the numbers of game stole from us each year. We need to change attitudes to do that. Hold your local County attorneys accountable for slaps on the wrist on this maggots.

4). If you want or need a deer to fill the freezer, and have whitetails in the area, kill one of those. They eat far better than mule deer anyway. To many people think that they just have the God given right to a fork horn every year. There's to many people living in mule deer country now for that to happen and grow deer with any age diversity.

5). Join a local sportsman's group. Your voice isn't large enough alone. I know that most hunters are loners by nature, but you might even meet a friend or two. There is some comfort in knowing your making a difference.


This is the best formula across the board to help with deer populations in every state. Wyoming had a crash in the early 90's and then again in the mid to late 200's. Mule Deer populations take time to recover, more time than elk do. Undisturbed winter range will be the best formula to help with raising deer populations.

 

[MTpubliclander]

In the hardest to draw area for a bull elk tag in MT, all you can shoot is a spike bull on your general tag. And yes I know that elk and deer are different but there are management plans that work that really seem like they shouldn't. In this district the spikes get blown away all season long but any bull that slips by the hunting hoards(or lives more than a mile from the road) is pretty safe once he grows a brow tine. I have discussed the idea of a point restriction for deer with friends before and they always seem to end in giant 2 points and angry hunters, MT at the moment has several areas of the state that are draw only for mulie buck and they shoot some dandy's in those each year but first you have to convince people to give up their favorite area behind their house in exchange for shooting one big buck when they finally get drawn in 8 years. As always the hard part is convincing the majority, who then convinces FWP

 

[Redwood]

It is true that bitching does nothing, a uniform front must be presented. If you are not a member of your local chapters you should be, even if your local chapters are lacking. The billings mdf chapter is getting better, slowly, but better. Join a chapter, go to banquets. These funds and ideals effect multiple species; ie purchasing land and restorations.

I have a huge issue with access and enforcement. I hunt a hike in only area that does have limited roads for forestry access. For the last 5 years the same group of hunters have driven 4-6 wheelers all over the property the 3rd wk of November. They camp in the same spot, do every thing the same. Every year I talk to the wardens, giving all the necessary info. Every year they tell me there is nothing they can do unless they catch them. My reply is that all they need to do is head out to the area and they will catch them. The response has been they don't have the personal for this. What... This is not some twit I'm talking to, this is the regions big dog. Pompeys was a nice spot to hunt when first opened, the road ruined it. Before it went in I called all over voicing my concern. They response was the road was to make it accessible and fair for all. I asked what about me, what about the guy that just wants to hunt where I don't have to worry about all the roads and people. I was told that was not their concern.

 

[Redwood]

Tjones, I try to be as active as possible. The last year forced me to take a step back. Wildlife management used to be my profession, know just a passion. For those that are looking for ways to get their voices heard, his suggestions are worth looking into.

 

[shoots-straight]

It is true that bitching does nothing, a uniform front must be presented. If you are not a member of your local chapters you should be, even if your local chapters are lacking. The billings mdf chapter is getting better, slowly, but better. Join a chapter, go to banquets. These funds and ideals effect multiple species; ie purchasing land and restorations.

I have a huge issue with access and enforcement. I hunt a hike in only area that does have limited roads for forestry access. For the last 5 years the same group of hunters have driven 4-6 wheelers all over the property the 3rd wk of November. They camp in the same spot, do every thing the same. Every year I talk to the wardens, giving all the necessary info. Every year they tell me there is nothing they can do unless they catch them. My reply is that all they need to do is head out to the area and they will catch them. The response has been they don't have the personal for this. What... This is not some twit I'm talking to, this is the regions big dog. Pompeys was a nice spot to hunt when first opened, the road ruined it. Before it went in I called all over voicing my concern. They response was the road was to make it accessible and fair for all. I asked what about me, what about the guy that just wants to hunt where I don't have to worry about all the roads and people. I was told that was not their concern.

It's not their concern!

Wardens are not the people to call for that. Try your local Forest Service Enforcement, or the BLM enforcement division. If that doesn't work, call your local county Sheriff department. If there's trespass then wardens will respond, but again your Sheriff department would be a better fit.

Every single time I turn someone in they get what they deserve. Maybe Ravalli County is tougher than I thought on abusers.

 

[greatwhitebuffalo]

What are the thoughts on restrictions on main beam lengths? Or, outside spreads?

 

[Redwood]

I referenced two issues I ran into regarding access. The hike in only are was an issue I discussed with the wardens and they agree this was something to be concerned with, they supposedly just didn't have the personal to deal with it. I believe, and they seemed to agree, that this was definitely a matter with which they should be concerned. They were hunting illegally, just the same as shooting from the road. Case in point, an elk got stuck in the mud. I call game/fish to help me get it out. I asked if I should take a wheeler out to it to help pull it out but was told if I did they would cite me for taking it into a restricted area. Even though I could see the elk from the road. Issues like this abuse are why they are there, supposedly.

 

[mtmuley]

Redwood, try the local Forest Service law enforcement officer instead of the wardens this year. I know here where I live, they refer to them on illegal ATV use anyway. (I've helped nail a couple abusers) They may also have less of a caseload to deal with at that time. Also, take pictures, get GPS coordinates, and have the LEO phone numbers in your cell phone. mtmuley

 

[mtlion]

What are the thoughts on restrictions on main beam lengths? Or, outside spreads?

Gee. I don't know. Let me get my tape measure out before I decide to shoot.

Ever seen a really old buck that wasn't very wide? I sure have.

 

[greatwhitebuffalo]

Gee. I don't know. Let me get my tape measure out before I decide to shoot.

Ever seen a really old buck that wasn't very wide? I sure have.

Sure. I've seen them old & not very wide. This is where the main beam would come in as an "either/or" qualification.

An example of legal bucks might be: Either a 18" outside spread Or 18" main beams

This isn't terribly restrictive and doesn't require your buck to be a giant. Just makes sure that only reasonably mature deer are getting killed, and gives the 2 1/2 year old's another year in most cases.

 

[Redwood]

I understand your suggestion on lengths, but as was so "eloquently" put it's not practical. I believe it would result in deer shot and left when they don't measure up. I truly believe the best way is limiting access, via permit or road. Age structure is our problem, most bucks are 3.5 or younger when they get it.

 

[greatwhitebuffalo]

I understand your suggestion on lengths, but as was so "eloquently" put it's not practical. I believe it would result in deer shot and left when they don't measure up. I truly believe the best way is limiting access, via permit or road. Age structure is our problem, most bucks are 3.5 or younger when they get it.

Yeah. I know you're right. Just trying to help by tossing out some ideas. Thanks

 

[Highlands Hunter]

Coyotes need to be thinned out.

 

[Brandenbowhunter]

This used to be the case in many of the areas I hunt. It sort of worked. FWP does not have enough check stations, or officers to enforce it. Seen a lot of bucks shot that were not four points. Yeah, we turned those people in, but those are just the ones you catch.

 

[Brandenbowhunter]

Better solution in my mine, get rid of rut hunting with a rifle, mule deer are too dumb. Even big bucks get super dumb.

I know I will get burned for saying that, but hey!

 

[Brandenbowhunter]

another idea, I have been bugging a buddy at FWP about, offer a second buck tag, this would make your A tag good for whitetail only, you then pick a region or unit to mule deer hunt in. Whitetail are the biggest robbers of habitat for both mule deer and elk. Mule deer are the most unstable of the 3. Reduce WT numbers, and force guys to hunt one region. You could charge more for the second tag, more revenue for state. Guys get more tags, but because of having another tag, may not shoot just to shoot. Just an idea.