Mt. W. fork Bitterroot calf survival

[lamdilligaf]

I have heard that areas of the Bitterroot west fork have already had 100% mortality of the collared elk calves from this years study. The mortality from the first week of the study was mixed in cause, but the second week was almost entirely related to lion predation. Does anyone have any further information on this subject? It was a surprise that lions had a greater impact than bears on the calves.

 

[shoots-straight]

I know we had been losing a calf a day. I haven't heard how they have been fairing sence then. 14 of 66 were dead by the second week of the study. I really don't think that we lost all 66.

 

[belly-deep]

Unbelievable.

I've never figured out the logic of the whole lion thing.

Probably close to 100% of people who hunt MT, hunt deer and elk.

Probably less than 10% hunt lions. And yet we have all of these trophy lion units in the western part of the state that cut into the deer and elk numbers. Seems like a small minority to cater to.

 

[sweetnectar]

Wow. Perhaps opening things up to a whole lot more preditor hunting could be very useful.

 

[muleguy]

Bitterroot aka Predator Pit

 

[belly-deep]

Bitterroot aka Predator Pit

It may have taken the top spot from the North Fork of the Flathead.

Wolves have been in there since the 80s at least, and at one time the NF had the highest predator to prey ratio in the lower 48.

 

[lamdilligaf]

I know we had been losing a calf a day. I haven't heard how they have been fairing sence then. 14 of 66 were dead by the second week of the study. I really don't think that we lost all 66.

The 100% mortality was not for the entire west fork. From what I heard, it was from the Little Blue Joint area. SS, perhaps you'll have to revise your view regarding black bears as the major calf killer.

 

[shoots-straight]

I killed a lion in the West Fork this last hunting season. It took 2 days of hunting in there to do that. I also trap there, and had one by a toe for a while. If and when we start reducing some of the wolves in that HD, then I think the lions will follow. You could kill every lion in that HD and by the next year it would be full again.

The 100% mortality was not for the entire west fork. From what I heard, it was from the Little Blue Joint area. SS, perhaps you'll have to revise your view regarding black bears as the major calf killer.

It might be a little early to come to any conclusions just yet. I always knew lions where a big part of the problem. We've been protecting them for the last 10 years or so in there.

 

[MattK]

SS- I'm not sure I understand...how are wolf populations related to the number of permits given in the West Fork? Are you thinking that people aren't hunting in there due to the wolf population (wolves killing their dogs?) Wouldn't a better solution be to get rid of the "trophy" areas in western montana? The deer numbers have plumetted in many districts and I know that wolves aren't the cause of this decrease throughout every unit that have become "trophy" units. I think the fish and game messed up and catered to a vocal few to the detriment of the many (ie. cat hunters vs deer/elk hunters).

 

[shoots-straight]

SS- I'm not sure I understand...how are wolf populations related to the number of permits given in the West Fork? Are you thinking that people aren't hunting in there due to the wolf population (wolves killing their dogs?) Wouldn't a better solution be to get rid of the "trophy" areas in western montana? The deer numbers have plumetted in many districts and I know that wolves aren't the cause of this decrease throughout every unit that have become "trophy" units. I think the fish and game messed up and catered to a vocal few to the detriment of the many (ie. cat hunters vs deer/elk hunters).

Your assumptions are correct. People have a hard time turning loose on a cat in many areas of the Root, because of wolves. The more roaded areas are a little bit simpler. You cover the general area where you found the track (snowmobile, or vehicle) and make sure the wolves aren't there, and then go back to the tracks and turn out. In the West Fork, there's lots of areas you can't cover in any type of vehicle enough to see if the wolves aren't in your chase area. It's a lot tougher there.

We got the Fish & Game to increase permits so the right people draw. The Root enjoyed 28 harvested cats this past year. I hear that those permit numbers are going up again. The West Fork needs more lions removed for sure.

 

[MattK]

SS- Do you know the number of cats killed in the bitteroot prior to the trophy cat designation. In the area I hunt the # of cats killed (according to the biologist) was around 100 per year and had been sustained at that number for quite some time...after the designation it went down to 10-25. In just a few years the number of cats had increased dramatically and the number of deer decreased in about the same manner. (There is a small pack of wolves in this area also but I have yet to see a wolf track in the area I hunt).

If people are unwilling (rightfully so) to run cats in that area, wouldn't it be better to open the mt lion season during normal hunting season and increase the quota? I truly believe that lions have been and are more detrimental to deer and elk numbers than most of the wolves in an area and get very little notice from most people. I may be completely wrong on this but it just seems to be the case. People yell about wolf numbers because of the decrease in deer/ elk population but seldom say anything about the mt lion population.

 

[shoots-straight]

Matt, in the 90's we killed as many as 60 cats a year.I don't have the average but the quota was high, and many cats were killed. The deer and elk populations enjoyed a really good increase in populations then. IMO, we did knock the lions back, and most likely over harvested them. The houndsmen organized, under leadership that was more of a preservationist mindset. We didn't kill many cats for a decade. (I'm talking county wide here.) I know that I called a cat in during rifle season, shot it, and it closed the quota for the entire year in HD 270. We grew cats fast.

The wolves were the straw that broke the camels back here. We killed off the elk to meet the intent of HB 43 (Debbie Barrett elk population bill) which left the numbers to low for the amount of mouths to feed. I feel that's when this thing went in a tail spin.

We killed 28 county wide last year, and there will be a sizable increase in tags here for next year. I'm thinking by next year, (if we get snow) we will knock the lions back. I don't know if we will get enough wolf harvest. I would feel better if trapping was allowed.

In 2005, with support from the outfitters, and some of the houndsman, we (RCF&W ass.) had proposed a quota of 33 lions with some females. The very next day, our bio, took that number, threw it out the window, and we ended up with 11. He liked predators, but sure upped the kill on elk and deer. Glad he's up north these days.

If you remember, at around the same time we started treating cats like a trophy, we also pulled the bear season's back. In most of region 1 bear season ended by May 15, here in the Root, it was pulled back to May 31. Doesn't leave you a lot of time to get out and kill a bear. I think bear populations are high too, and that's why our club is proposing a bait season for the southern end of the valley. In HD 270 and HD 250. We are looking for a limited entry for however many bears our current bio thinks we need harvested. We aren't looking to create a outfitter fiasco with baits in every draw like in Idaho.

 

[----]

If you remember, at around the same time we started treating cats like a trophy, we also pulled the bear season's back. In most of region 1 bear season ended by May 15, here in the Root, it was pulled back to May 31. Doesn't leave you a lot of time to get out and kill a bear. I think bear populations are high too, and that's why our club is proposing a bait season for the southern end of the valley. In HD 270 and HD 250. We are looking for a limited entry for however many bears our current bio thinks we need harvested. We aren't looking to create a outfitter fiasco with baits in every draw like in Idaho.

I respect you a lot shoots, and really like the work that RCFW does, but for the life of me I can't understand how this is the right way to manage bears.

Baiting is illegal for big game in Montana, has been since I've been alive. A lot of people are proud of that, and compromising it even a little bit doesn't make sense to me. Reduced NR tags or secondary tags would work just as well, and would be a lot less controversial.

Also, (I'm going off the top of my head here), aren't black bear densities higher almost everywhere north of here and west of the divide than the Bitterroot? It'd be interesting to see what the bear populations are in the root right now compared to normal. I don't see any reason why they'd be higher than normal. Is there one?

 

[Carrion Carrier]

Don't wolves kill other mid-sized predators?

 

[shoots-straight]

I respect you a lot shoots, and really like the work that RCFW does, but for the life of me I can't understand how this is the right way to manage bears.

Baiting is illegal for big game in Montana, has been since I've been alive. A lot of people are proud of that, and compromising it even a little bit doesn't make sense to me. Reduced NR tags or secondary tags would work just as well, and would be a lot less controversial.

Also, (I'm going off the top of my head here), aren't black bear densities higher almost everywhere north of here and west of the divide than the Bitterroot? It'd be interesting to see what the bear populations are in the root right now compared to normal. I don't see any reason why they'd be higher than normal. Is there one?

Randy, baiting of big game animals is a ethical question. Idaho has bait seasons, and their boarder is less that 12 miles from my door.

One of the ways the dept. checks on bear populations is "age". I know that our bears that are harvested, are of a good age structure. The reason baiting has come up, is because many people (myself included) like to hunt bears this way. I like to bow hunt them. There's also a high probability of harvest with baiting. We're going with 80%. As is sits right now, there's not many bears being harvested in the southern end of the valley in a year. We need a little more harvest, and baiting would do that.

It wouldn't be a free-for-all. There would be a limited number of bait tags given, and you would have to draw. That takes the free-for-all out of it.

It's a ethical question. Let me ask you a few. If you had the means, and the nice piece of river bottom land, would you put in a food plot? I know a lot of people that do, here in Montana and it's not illegal. They do it with the intention of hunting. Is that not baiting? People that hunt Canadian geese find a good grain field and spreed out the decoys. Is that not baiting? It's just different types hunts, that in the end do the same thing. I get bored out of my mind sitting behind glass all day. I like the whole process of baiting. Getting out early, locating a good site, and then checking on what comes in. You never know.

If wolves are allowed to be trapped, then I would recommend that bait be allowed, dirt hole sets would work. You could trap them with other sets but why limit it. Also we might need to use bait stations on wolves to keep their numbers controlled. Would you be against the baiting of wolves?

I have seen data where spring bear seasons, where baiting isn't allowed, have a number of sows killed with cubs. Enough of them that many sportsman came out against spring seasons. Just one sow killed with cubs in the spring, give us a black eye. Hunting over bait allows you to look over the animal, determine if it has cubs, quality of hide, size, and high percentage of kill rate is the animal is chosen.

I know you like to spot and stalk bears. I don't think your type of hunting would be impacted at all.

I hope that I made some sense.

 

[shoots-straight]

Don't wolves kill other mid-sized predators?

Wolves kill a lot of stuff. Cats, for the most part eat hoofed animals.

 

[----]

I've got no ethical problems with baiting, just not my thing. Like you said, ID is only twelve miles away, has cheap tags, and I'm pretty sure you don't need to apply for a bait permit. That's a pretty accessible option for someone dying to kill a bear over some donuts.

I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure wildlife specific foodplots are illegal in MT aren't they? Granted if you cut it once a year or throw a cow on it you get around that, but I thought you at least had to make an effort to give a reason other than attracting wildlife.

Baiting will inevitably change the bears routines in the area, and I really feel for the guys that have spot and stalk hunted that area forever. For what it's worth, I don't hunt the root for bear, so it wouldn't effect me at all unless other areas in region 2 followed suit.

I don't know, I just don't want baiting in MT. I'd rather they gave out a few hound tags instead, but I'm pretty sure if there is such a huge surplus of black bears, we could manage them via spot and stalk like we always have.

If there was some huge red flag showing there's way too many bears out there, I might look at it differently, but I just don't see it. It feels to me like the bears are getting caught up in the anti predator movement with the booming lion and wolf population. I might be wrong, but what could have changed to make us have significantly more bears now than 15 years ago? With lions and wolves there's obvious reasons, I don't see one for bears.


Add on: Montana has a really awesome reputation as being spot and stalk capital of the US. Our somewhat open bear terrain and high densities makes for a pretty unique experience as far as bear hunts go, and I just don't think the few extra bears killed every year is worth compromising that reputation even a little bit.

I also wonder how many people that are serious enough about bear hunting to apply for a bait permit, already kill a bear every year. I wouldn't be surprised if half the bears killed in the bear season are killed by hunters that would've notched their tag anyways.

 

[----]

Would you be against the baiting of wolves?

The only thing I know about trapping is mice like peanut butter. I'm not qualified what so ever as to what would need to be done to trap wolves.

 

[lamdilligaf]

Back to my original question. Does anyone have any additional information pertaining to the ongoing calf mortality/survival study in the west fork of the bitterroot?

 

[muleguy]

Back to my original question. Does anyone have any additional information pertaining to the ongoing calf mortality/survival study in the west fork of the bitterroot?

Craig is said to have an updated report out next week on calf mortality.