More trouble in AZ

[JoseCuervo]

OK Danr,

Looks like nothing else needs to be done... I would just sit back and watch the landowners start getting tags if I was you....

Lemme seee.....
Outfitters get 10%
Landowners get 10%
Licensing Comapines get 10%
Non-Residents get 50%
AZ Residents get 20%

Yeppers, I would guess you all don't have anything to worry about. The bluff by the landowners to close the access was BS, so you might as well all sit back and enjoy your 20% of the allocation.

I'll be sure and honk as I drive by...

 

[Delw]

ElkGunner they want land owner tags very badly.

They will do anything to get them also, this uso lawsuit opened the door for it.


Delw

 

[Washington Hunter]

Dan, what if there are no roads into those public lands? Is a landowner required by law to allow access across his property to the public land?

 

[1_pointer]

In UT, access has to be granted through private property if the route is designated as being open by the county or state. Otherwise, no access has to be granted. In UT, you cannot legally jump from 'black' to 'black', meaning that you may not legally cross diagonally from one section of public to another. However, if the land is not posted, under agriculture or irrigated it is deemed open to the public. Proper posting entails all property corners and gates to be marked.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Do you guys really think the issue is whether the Ranchers are bluffing or not on denying access to public lands? Without knowing AZ law, I would guess that the Attorney (who passed the AZ Bar Exam) who wrote the letter to the Head of a State Department (with access to State Attorney General, who passed the AZ Bar Exam) should be able to figure out if it is a bluff or not.

The REAL issue is that if Landowner tags are issued, they don't increase the number of tags per year. The game won't sustain increased harvest. Therefore, the agencies, when they issue these "allocation" tags take from the largest pool possible, ie... the Residents.

You guys will be headed down all sorts of slippery slopes if you allow Landowner tags, Outfitter tags, Trespass fees, etc.. etc..

Don't waste time arguing if the bluff is real or not....

 

[A-con]

I ran in to a landowner acsess problem once. Map said it was a public road, through private land, going to public land. Ten miles from the hiway, 50 miles from the nearest town, some guy screaming at us to "get off his land". What are ya going to do, fight him (and all his kin), go running back to town to get the sheriff (probably his uncle ) ? By the time you get it streightened out, hunting season will be over.
Fact is, legal or not, ranchers do it all the time.

 

[danr55]

Under the law, you can ignore them and move on. If they interfere, they should be arrested and charged.

Where did this all happen? To my knowledge, there are only three ranches in the state with the legal right to close access to public land.

 

[A-con]

My story happened in Calif., but it can happen anywhere. Like I said, if it's a rual area, the local law probably knows the landowner, and they don't know you.

 

[cjcj]

In AZ a real dickhead rancher named Mike Odem tried to block access to a major portion of unit 10, he was forced to open his road thru the unit by G&F. But he was such an asshole he posted these big ass signs at each entrance telling hunters No stopping etc. on his ranch., later this prick was convicted of gut shooting 15-25 elk with a mini-14 [223] ranch rifle. last i heard he moved down to Yuma AZ.

 

[JoseCuervo]

So is that where this issue gets dropped, by the AZ guys believing that the Attorney for the Ranchers is bluffing, and they can't deny access? And does the denial of access matter if the state takes 10% of your tags and hands them to the Landowners??

Ask yourself a couple of questions.

Who is paying for the Lawyer for these guys to write this letter??? Do you really think the ranchers are paying for it, or do you think some outside instigator has gone and recruited them, somebody who has promised them $$$$$ for their tags?

Secondly, do you think it is easier to stop this process now, before the discussions and lawsuits start, or after the Rancher's Attorney has had the meetings with the Commissoners and/or his local 'in the pocket' Legislators?

 

[cjcj]

No Gunner it doesn`t get dropped, it gets discussed [in an open forum] at the G&F meeting in Flagstaff [aug. 12].

 

[JoseCuervo]

CJ,

Are you sure it is the Landowner issue being discussed, or the next steps from the Non-Res lawsuit?

Why allow it to even remain an issue until Aug 12? Why not pressure the ranchers to fold their tent and abandon this idea. Can you think of any possible benefit to Joe (or Jose) Six-Pack from this idea even getting to see the light of a Commission meeting???

Let me ask you a question, if you wanted a Landowner tag in New Mexico, what company would be able to provide you a tag, for a price??? Don't you think that model would be repeated in AZ???

 

[JoseCuervo]

I tried to see how easy it would be to find addresses of the Ranchers via Google. The first one I tried was Dobson and Dobson. No luck, couldn't find it.

The second one was WagonBow ranch, and interestingly enough, it is owned by developers who are subdividing it into smaller parcels. For more information www.wagonbowranch.com

Here are the FAQs

MOST FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS


1. WHERE IS THE PROPERTY LOCATED?



Wagon Bow is located at the base of and among the Aquarius Mountains in northwest Arizona. We are approximately 2.5 hours from Las Vegas or 3 hours from Phoenix. Access to the ranch is via a well-maintained county road from Arizona State Highway 93. The Wagon Bow information office is located at mile marker #119.



2. WHAT DOES THE PROPERTY LOOK LIKE?



The ranch is a beautiful property with scenic and abundant vegetation located in the Aquarius Mountains. The property ranges in elevation from approximately 3,000 to 6,000 feet, with the majority of the land situated in the range of 4,500 to 5,000 feet elevation. These elevations provide for breathtaking views and moderate temperatures throughout the year. The property varies from mountainous terrain as well as beautifully treed areas with lush meadows, pastures, and natural springs.



3. WHAT TOWNS ARE CLOSEST TO THE PROPERTY?



The closest town to Wagon Bow is Wikieup. Wikieup is a small desert town about 11 miles south on Hwy 93 that will provide for basic services such as post office, gasoline and necessary staples. A much larger city, approximately 30,000+ in population, is Kingman, Arizona. Kingman is located on Interstate 40 and the famous ‘Route 66’ and is approximately 45 minutes from the ranch turnoff. Kingman is also the county seat and will provide you with all your shopping needs and desires.



4. WHAT IMPROVEMENTS HAVE BEEN MADE?



A qualified surveyor, registered in the State of Arizona, has surveyed all of Wagon Bow Ranch. All property corners are clearly marked. Additionally, graded roads have been built for easy access to each lot.



5. WHAT ARE MOST PEOPLE PLANNING ON DOING WITH THEIR LAND?



Most of the current owners feel that Wagon Bow Ranch is a good opportunity to own a large yet affordable piece of America to use now or to hold for the future. Some of the owners plan to retire on the property, others plan to create a family heritage and pass it down to their children or grandchildren, while still other owners plan to subdivide the property into smaller parcels at a later date, probably keeping one and selling the others. Many of the property owners also plan to utilize the property as a permanent home or a recreational getaway, to get away from the hassles of life and to just enjoy the American dream.



6. WHAT ABOUT UTILITIES?



Currently, there is no power or telephone service on the property. People wishing power today can use propane gas and/or generators for refrigerators, cooking and heating purposes. Solar power technology is also an excellent alternative form of energy. Wastewater disposal for Wagon Bow is achieved by individual septic systems.




7. WHAT ABOUT WATER?



Water for your Wagon Bow Ranch parcel is to be provided by individual wells on your own parcel at your cost. Wells in the Wagon Bow have depths from 48 feet to 630 feet. There are several wells on the property at present.







8. WHAT ARE THE PROPERTY TAXES FOR A PARCEL?



The approximate annual property taxes on 160-acre ranch parcel at Wagon Bow Ranch calculate to a little over 1% of the purchase price per year.



9. TO WHOM DO I MAKE MY PAYMENT?



Your payments will be made to your lending institution.



10. MAY I USE THE LAND WHILE I'M PAYING FOR IT AND WHEN DO I RECEIVE A DEED TO MY PROPERTY?



Yes, beginning the very day you sign the real estate contract at closing, the land is yours to use and enjoy. Upon full payment of your loan, the title company will issue a deed to the property giving you free and clear title on the property you have purchased.



11. CAN I RESELL MY PROPERTY IN THE FUTURE AND MAKE A PROFIT?



While there is no guarantee of profit from any land sale, most ranches increase in value every year. In fact, during the last six years, sale prices for comparable land have increased an average of 60% due to supply and demand. Also, as we develop the land further and offer smaller parcels, their value will be 2 – 3 times higher than current costs. We believe there are many reasons for this upward trend, including inflation, population growth, the public's desire for a more natural environment and the trend toward movement away from urban areas, the increasing popularity of outdoor recreational activities, and most importantly the decreasing supply of deeded land.



12. IS THERE A PROPERTY OWNERS ASSOCIATION OR ANY RESTRICTIONS ON THE PROPERTY?



The Developer has established the Wagon Bow Ranch Property Owners Association whose main purpose is to maintain the roads within the ranch. Maintaining the access roads within the development will allow our Property Owners access to their parcels in the future and it is believed it will help to enhance and preserve property values.



The Association currently has dues of $100.00 per year per parcel. The dues cannot increase more than 10% per year to meet the needs of the Association without a majority vote of the Property Owners.



In an effort to help protect the natural beauty and to enhance and help protect the future value of the property, the Developer of Wagon Bow Ranch has recorded some thoughtful and sensible protective guidelines (i.e. Covenants, Conditions and Restrictions (C.C.R.'s), which are readily available for review.






13. WHY ARE SOME PROPERTIES MORE EXPENSIVE THAN OTHERS AND WILL PRICES BE INCREASING?



The Developer prices the various 40-acre ranch properties according to an “A B C" analysis and consideration of the proximity of the parcels to existing electric. A B C stands for Access, Beauty and Character. In other words, how quick or easy is the access to the property from the Interstate or the main county road, etc. The beauty of the property pertains to the vegetation, views, proximity to the mountains, etc. The character of the property refers to the topography, is the parcel flat, rolling, steep? Does the parcel have a large wash or several arroyos etc.?





14. HOW MANY PARCELS ARE AVAILABLE AND HOW MUCH IS STILL FOR SALE?



The exact number of parcels available is always changing because the demand continues to be so strong. Each new unit or phase offers an excellent and exciting variety of private ranch parcels to choose from.



15. WHAT IS THE SIZE OF THE PARCELS?



Each parcel is a minimum of 40 acres in size (equal to approximately 36 football fields). You may also purchase more than one parcel if you wish. Make your selection now while the choicest ranches are available..




16. WHY IS WAGON BOW RANCH SO INEXPENSIVE? WHAT'S THE CATCH?



There is no catch. We purchase large properties at a low price. By buying larger parcels it is possible to get a lower price per acre. And yet we do not purchase substandard properties. All our properties are carefully selected for their natural beauty, location, accessibility, and value. We then subdivide the property into smaller ranches and pass our savings on to our customers.



17. WHO IS THE DEVELOPER?



Wagon Bow Ranch is a development of Great Western Land & Recreation, Inc ., who has been in business since 1928. Honest dealings and great customer services is what Great Western Land & Recreation is all about.



18. MAY I RIDE MY HORSE ON THE RANCH?



You bet. There are equestrian easements throughout the ranch and of course on all government lands adjoining and within the Wagon Bow



19 . MAY I HUNT WILD GAME ON MY RANCH?



Yes. You may hunt on all the government property adjoining Wagon Bow and on your ranch according to government regulations. On the ranch there are herds of pronghorn antelope, trophy mule deer, javelina, and a large quail population.



20. WHAT OTHER ACTIVITIES DOES THE AREA OFFER?



There are a wide variety of outdoor activities and other entertainment venues near and around the ranch. From the Grand Canyon to Lake Havasu you can fish, hunt, camp, water ski, horseback ride, rock climb, etc. And within a couple to a few hours away you can enjoy the metropolitan delights of Phoenix, Flagstaff, Las Vegas, San Diego, Los Angeles, and the entire Southwest!

 

[JoseCuervo]

Here are some addresses of the ranchers threatening the closure of Public Lands in the above mentioned letter.

Cowan Ranch
206 South Cowan Ranch Road, Tombstone, AZ 85638
(520) 457-3350

X-One Ranch Inc
Peach Springs, AZ 86434
Phone: (928) 769-2222
Fax: 9287692425


How about getting the list of all of them, and starting to send letters??? Could you imagine the reaction each morning, when another letter shows up, suggesting your privelge to graze Public Lands may be gone due to greed of supporting some outside instigator???

 

[Mntman]

Did you notice how many words in the Lawyers letter was misspelled?
I think we should write to them expressing our interests in this subject with polite and gentile thoughts.
"You get more bees with honey than vinegar" is what my parents always told me.
I believe in the diplomatic solution and they are fairly intellegent people like most of us.
Lets not stir or mess things up too bad.
Also notify the AZGFD that we support them and wish them to not offer any land tags to anyone in this state with out strict LAWS regarding it not be sold or given away to anyone. Only their immediate family living on the land may use it.
That would hopefully take the money equation out of it.
Just my $0.02

 

[Oak]

I don't agree that they need any tags, Mntman. Let them compete just like the rest of us. What good reason is there to give them preference? If we keep compromising, there won't be anything left for the poor folks.

Oak

 

[Delw]

If you give one landower a tag and put provisions on it you open yourself up for more lawsuits.

#1 AZ doesnt need land owner tags no matter how big there freaking ranch is.

#2 ranchers only reasons to get land owner tags are purely from a financial point of view, they dont give a crap how many elk are in there they just want the money,
If they didnt the would suggest with open arms for game and fish to have a depredatation hunt on there ranch.
Game and fish would then to a survey to see if this is needed and if it is they would give out the proper amount of tags.

AZG&F has one of the best depreditation hunts in the U.S. and probally the most fairest. they dont pass them along to people to sell at an extreamly high rate. they have a drawing the lady calls you up and you pay the money its that simple.

These depredation hunts were from what I understand was to get the game that are problems to a particular area or over populated back into sync, thats all it was designed for not for the profit of land owners or outfitters.


Delw

 

[JoseCuervo]

Del,

Can you either post my letter/suggestions over to one of the AZ forums or invite those guys over here to discuss? It would be interesting to know if the rest of AZ is as apathetic as DanR, CJ and the likes.

Once the meetings happen, and somebody starts talking to the attorney that wrote the letter, you will soon see Landowner tags being deducted from the Resident allocation.

Look at the E-Mail reply Nemont posted, where USO claimed they were just trying to be fair, and they wrote a few letters, and got a bit upset when they were re-buffed by AZFGD. And then, only then, they had to file a law suit.

Looks like Deja Vu all over again....

 

[Delw]

http://www.azuho.com/cgi-bin/mb/ultimatebb.cgi
the above group is a good bunch of guys and the guys who own the board are pretty cool

http://azodchat.com/default.asp?Group=1
the above group of this board, has a good group of guys and is owned by people who dont give a rats ass about the enviroment unless they can make a buck, if they have a potential sponsor and you are offending there sponsor your posts get deleted. this is more of a politically correct board with a twist.


Delw

 

[JoseCuervo]

Hell, I don't want to join, and offend the Owners and Administrators over here.... That would be disloyal of me....

I just want to read their reactions. If I joined, and disagreed, I might make fun of them, and some people struggle to see all of my humour.