More trouble in AZ

[muskrat89]

From Bowsite.com

July 15, 2004 and addressed to "Duane Shroufe Director Arizona Game & Fish Department".
"Dear Mr. Shroufe:

My clients have developed an impression that the Arizona Game & Fish Department is not receptive or sensitive to concerns relating to property damage caused by wildlife and/or inconsiderate hunters. After much thought and discussion, the following ranches have, or are seriously considering, denying any and all public access for any purpose on their private land:

Aztec Land and Cattle Comapny

Becker Land and Cattle Company

LO Ranch

7-Up Ranch

Goldtrap Ranch

Willaha Ranch

McCauley Ranch

X-one Ranch

Rock Art Ranch

Aja Sheep Company

Freeman Ranch

Carlock Ranch

Diamond A's (Cholla Livestock)

K-4 Ranch

Las Vegas Ranch

Dobson and Dobson Livestock Company

Dobson Estate

Vernon 825, LLC

Sheep Springs Sheep Company, LLC

Timberline Cattle Company

Wagon Bow Ranch

Lazy YE

Red Wing Ranch

Cowan Ranch

Yolo Ranch

ORO Ranch

Seibert Cattle Company

As you are aware, these ranches control access to large parcels of privately owned real property and/or access to large parcels of public property in bothe northern and southern Arizona.Hunters currently enjoy free and unfettered use of many of these private parcels. The current mismanagement of wildlife has caused a detrimental impact on the ability of these ranchers to maintain viable cattle operations. Thus far, management of wildlife has been one =sided. Hunters and the AG&FD enjoy the benefit of water, range and access improvements maintained at the sole expense of these ranchers. The ranchers are recieving little or nothing in return Their only recourse at this point is to deny any type of access.

In the event your department is interested in discussing a fair resolution of ongoing concerns relating to ranching and wildlife management, please have your legal counsel contact this office. Otherwise the above- referenced ranches will be closed to public access. Moreover, we will continue to seek every available remedy, including political, public and legal alternatives, to force your department to recognize the significant economic loss the mismangament of wildlife is causing to my clients.

Thank you for your prompt attention in this regard."

It is from, "Thomas K. Kelly,P.C. Attorneys at law", dated July 15, 2004 and addressed to "Duane Shroufe Director Arizona Game & Fish Department".

 

[Ithaca 37]

Typical threat from ranchers. Do any of them graze on public land? How about making them pay fair market prices for that! Now they're going to want to be paid for the grass that deer and antelope eat on private land. Why should hunters be responsible for paying? The game belongs to all the citizens of AZ.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Looks like the ranchers will be happy after every last Elk, Deer, and 'Lope is removed from AZ... And you got the Anti-s working at making it more difficult to hunt any animals....

Muskrat,
What do you think the ranchers are wanting? Landowner tags???

 

[danr55]

I can't hardly believe it. Landowners in Arizona asking for special consideration. Do you imagine that now that USO has busted the non resident limitation on tags, that these guys would be asking for landowner tags to sell to USO??

 

[JoseCuervo]

My guess is you should already consider the access lost, as if they get Landowner tags, they won't allow the public in to hunt then.

Could you imagine paying $3000 for a Landowner Tag, and the rancher is letting Joe Six-Pac in to hunt at the same time??? Ain't gonna happen.

I would say you guys should be writing letters NOW to the Comissioner and the Department's Legal Staff, encouraging them to not even negotiate.

 

[rhnm]

It looks like they are demanding land owner tags. Where do you think the additional tags will come from?

 

[JoseCuervo]

If you guys really want to stop this action by the ranchers, here is what I would suggest. I suggest you look up mailing addresses for each Ranch that is a party to the letter to the Comission and post them on public forums. I would then suggest you mail the following letter, signed or unsigned, to each rancher on the list. Could you imagine the power of a 50 letters addressed to each rancher hitting their mailboxes? Postmarked from all across the state of AZ, and across the country? Post this letter and the addresses to all the web forums, and let the ranchers know that you will not stand by and allow your lifestyle to be sold to greedy outfitters and lazy hunters.

Dear Rancher,

I have seen where you are a party of a letter to Duane Shroufe Director Arizona Game & Fish Department advising him that you will not allow access to Public Lands for hunting. I would like you to reconsider your stance on this issue, as a hunter, I believe we all have a right to access Public Lands for hunting.

Previously, I have supported your privilege to lease public lands to feed your cows. But my support of YOUR lifestyle will be removed, as it appears you will not support my lifestyle. Arizona hunters are facing enough issues with access, commercialization, and greed by out of state licensing companies that we do not need you threatening to shut down our access.

If you and your compatriots choose to continue with your direction toward the AZGFD, I will begin joining my fellow hunters in making sure your privilege to graze livestock on MY PUBLIC LANDS is revoked. With a good pair of boots and a camera, we will hike every square inch of your allotments, documenting endangered and threatened species. We will take pictures of every cow hoof print in a sensitive riparian area. We will deliver proof to the managing agencies of every day one of your strays trespasses on my public lands, beyond the terms of your lease.

We will support any of the anti-grazing groups that are across the west, and urge them to use your ranch as their precedent setting cases in lawsuits. We will make sure that administrative appeals of your lease and your grazing plans are continual, constant, and disruptive to your operation.

Please re-consider your support of the July 15 letter to Duane Shroufe Director Arizona Game & Fish Department, and please send a follow up letter removing your support.

Regards,
Joe Six-Pack

 

[Nemont]

Not trying to pick a fight here but what does grazing public land have to do with hunting access to privated deeded land? I haven't seen that language in the grazing rules issued by the BLM.

Aren't you picking a fight with the wrong people? Why not go after USO and all they are up to? Why make an enemy out of the ranchers also? I am not saying the landowners should get tags I am just trying to understand that position.

I didn't see where the landowners demanded any tags in that letter. Why not pay them an access fee like the Block Management land in Montana? Would you let someone use your house for free while they don't do anything to help you with the expenses? That land has to pay for itself one way or another.

Nemont

 

[JoseCuervo]

and/or access to large parcels of public property in bothe northern and southern Arizona

The original letter from the attorney talked about denying access to the Public Land. In essence, the Ranchers drug the Public Land into the equation, at that point, Public Land grazing is on the table.

USO has shown they will fund lawsuits to effect change. So why go after them? Why not go after the Ranchers who don't want to go thru environmental studies, lawsuits, and adminstrative appeals every spring when their cows get hungry?

Based upon the original letter, it is the Ranchers who are starting this fight, and my guess is they will back down. The $5-10k they would get for the Landowner tag is not worth risking their access to grazing public lands nor the uncertainty of knowing what terms the Agency will put on their grazing each year.

In the end, Ranchers are mostly interested in getting cheap grass to fatten calves. A bit of money from an Outfitter is not worth risking the free ride on Public Land for their cows.

 

[Nemont]

EG,
Ranchers generally aren't that stupid. They know that the grazing issue is seperated from the hunting access issue. They most likely would take both the outfitters money and the public lands grass.

They also know that the anti grazing bunch will continue the attack no matter if they let hunters on or not.

The two issues are seperate.

Nemont

 

[A-con]

I HATE to say it, but Elkgunner has a good point on this.
Another option, give them a very limited number of landowner tags ( say one tag per 50,000 acers of elk habitat, not land, HABITAT ), but only if they will sign a public document allowing all licenced hunters, and there support crew, access to ALL of their private lands, for hunting and right of way to landlocked areas.
I wonder how they would feel about allowing everybody to hunt their ranches ?
Just a thought.

 

[Delw]

Acutally by law ranchers cannot block access to any public property. Ranchers here in az dont own much land but the lease lots of land and the land they lease is public property which they cant deny or limit its use.

If they blocked access the locks get cut by game and fish, forrest service or the sheriffs dept. etc..

Delw

 

[Nemont]

Delw,
Then what kind of leverage do they have to threaten access? If that is the case then why are people worked up about it?

Nemont

 

[JoseCuervo]

The two issues were separate, until the Ranchers decided to hold Public Lands hostage to hunters. If you don't get the Ranchers to back down, you will have a series of events in motion, that will get the AZGFD starting to consider Landowner Tags, Legislators demanding them, and some guy in New Mexico suing for them.

If the Ranchers realize their "bread and butter" will be at risk, they ain't gonna be too excited about pursuing the actions the oringal letter threatened.

It is incredibly easy for a grass-roots organziation (or anarchists) to put a wrench in the cogs of Public Land issues.

I don't think ranchers are stupid, in fact, just the opposite. I am betting that the smart ones would realize that poking a stick at a hornet's nest of hunters isn't a good thing, for the promise of a few dollars from some guy in New Mexico.

The original letter seemed heavy handed, and in negotiations and dealmaking, who ever makes the first offer sets the tone. The tone has been set as heavy handed, the reply must be heavier.

I do like the fact that some guy in Idaho is discussing this issue with some guy in Montana. Where are all the big talking AZ boys????

 

[Ithaca 37]

Don't open the landowner permit can of worms. As soon as they get something worth money you'll have a never ending battle on your hands as the landowners lobby for more or try to take advantage of the system.

 

[JoseCuervo]

A-Con,

I don't think you want to give the first Landowner tag away, as you set precedent. Then you will need to give Outfitter tags out. Then you will need to give Licensing Service tags out to companies in New Mexico.

Don't compromise on the first one, or you will soon find out that being in the Middle of the Road gets you ran over by heavy traffic.

 

[Nemont]

EG,
Del said that they can't block access to public lands and that if they do the locks are cut. What exactly is the threat to access worth if the ranchers can't block it?

That is kind of fools poker, isn't it? Call the bluff and see how quickly they back down. I hate to say this also because I hate to inflate your ego any more then it is but you may be correct just this one time.

Nemont

 

[JoseCuervo]

Nemont,

Usually when Ranchers deny access, they are acutally just denying the easy access to the land. If you drive past their homestead, it is 400 yards to the Public Land behind them. But if you must go around their deeded land, you have to hike several miles.

In Idaho, it seems like the deeded land is 3 miles long, and 100 yards wide, all along the creek. To get to the Public Land above the creek, you have to cross their private land, or go up 3 miles, and hope the adjacent landowner will allow crossing.

I think in the Checkerboard in Wyoming, the ranchers can deny access by not allowing you onto their "red square" to gain access to the Public's "black square".

Del,
Can ranchers deny you access to cross DEEDED land in order to get to Public Land in AZ?

Nemont,
And don't worry about my ego inflating more. I don't think that is a possiblity....

 

[Washington Hunter]

Of course those greedy ranchers can block access to public lands. They do it in all the western states. The fact that they haven't been blocking access in the past is what surprises me. I would think they would at least charge a trespass fee for a guy to hunt landlocked PUBLIC LANDS.

 

[danr55]

Gunner, There is a law in Arizona which specifically forbids denying access to public land. Gates cannot be locked unless there is ample access through other contiguous lands, without a court order. If the landowners have a judge in their pocket who will grant the court orders, then they can closeoff public land.

Given the nature of the section by section checkerboard through out the state, I would find it extraordinary to see all of these lands closed at once. Given the nature of the beast, it just might happen.