Montana - Time to Shake it Up?

[Mtn-time]

Title says "Shake IT UP" At this point Im not in favor of shortening seasons or reducing opportunity for Mt residents. If forced to pick one, I'd have to go with eliminating or modifying the two day youth season to whitetail does only as the way to go to protect the greatest number of mule deer bucks while minimizing the impact to DIY hunters and outfitters, etc. Im confident that the above is not a palatable option and will get some folks fired up. I guess if one had the fortitude to pursue this mule deer management seriously they would start by throwing the youth hunters under the bus. What does gravel me is the hypocrisy of SOME promoting additional regulations and yet still shooting a mediocre muley at best during the rut. Take a doe or a whitetail and grind it up for jerky. I have zero respect for the individual that promotes or wants to limit or restrict opportunity while not conforming to THEIR own agenda at present. It reminds me of a friend of mine that shot a rag horn bull to put "meat in the freezer" after passing up cows through much of the season. Did he really want the meat or the label of having killed a "bull" to stroke his ego. Persistence and the ability to eat a deer tag when necessary will produce a big mule deer buck in MT, as opposed to connecting to Onyx and going BM bopping.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Title says "Shake IT UP" At this point Im not in favor of shortening seasons or reducing opportunity for Mt residents. If forced to pick one, I'd have to go with eliminating or modifying the two day youth season to whitetail does only as the way to go to protect the greatest number of mule deer bucks while minimizing the impact to DIY hunters and outfitters, etc. Im confident that the above is not a palatable option and will get some folks fired up. I guess if one had the fortitude to pursue this mule deer management seriously they would start by throwing the youth hunters under the bus. What does gravel me is the hypocrisy of SOME promoting additional regulations and yet still shooting a mediocre muley at best during the rut. Take a doe or a whitetail and grind it up for jerky. I have zero respect for the individual that promotes or wants to limit or restrict opportunity while not conforming to THEIR own agenda at present. It reminds me of a friend of mine that shot a rag horn bull to put "meat in the freezer" after passing up cows through much of the season. Did he really want the meat or the label of having killed a "bull" to stroke his ego. Persistence and the ability to eat a deer tag when necessary will produce a big mule deer buck in MT, as opposed to connecting to Onyx and going BM bopping.

Why not make it limited entry?

 

[Straight Arrow]

yet still shooting a mediocre muley at best during the rut. Take a doe or a whitetail

I think many here agree with you, as it is reflected in several mule deer decline discussions. I haven't shot a mule deer buck in over a decade and even have passed on does with permits in my pocket the past several years. But maybe that's just me as a spoiled chronologically challenged Montana hunter. What disturbs me (as to which you allude) is the number of small muley bucks posted on HT with the ill-placed caption of pride in shooting a "trophy buck" ... typically a buck which I would be ashamed for anyone to know I killed.
Anymore, I shoot deer with camera.

 

[Mtn-time]

I believe limited entry in the form of a permit would have unintended consequences. Counter intuitive if you will. People will fill their tag more so than ever. The hunting pressure would still be there and it'd be more focused. It'd be interesting to see if harvest success is greater in LE units vs general units, but it I think it would be impossible to quantify the results with any valid level of certainty.

 

[Deleted member 48080]

Have you guys considered a ballot initiative that would just ban all hunting on public lands?

I bet one of you could get in touch with Footloose to get the ball rolling.

 

[cgasner1]

It would be an interesting and worthwhile exercise to go through old data from other states around the time they “became” pick your weapon, or shortened seasons, etc. See how those changes affected hunter numbers, pressure, etc. at the time and compare to now. We can speculate all we want about this or that but looking at other western state’s experiences might be a better way to get a little more informed on the potential consequences of any particular change. Won’t be the same of course but might shed a little insight.

It would have so many hurdles like the non resident side you’d have to spilt the draw into 2 different groups for elk how many tags do you put into each group? Then look at resident where you’re guaranteed a tag so do you make them pick rifle or archery before the draw? Them what happens when they selected archery and draw a rifle breaks permit? For a pick your season to work the entire draw process needs a massive overhaul. It would be very do able but a huge problem.

 

[TOGIE]

Title says "Shake IT UP" At this point Im not in favor of shortening seasons or reducing opportunity for Mt residents. If forced to pick one, I'd have to go with eliminating or modifying the two day youth season to whitetail does only as the way to go to protect the greatest number of mule deer bucks while minimizing the impact to DIY hunters and outfitters, etc. Im confident that the above is not a palatable option and will get some folks fired up. I guess if one had the fortitude to pursue this mule deer management seriously they would start by throwing the youth hunters under the bus. What does gravel me is the hypocrisy of SOME promoting additional regulations and yet still shooting a mediocre muley at best during the rut. Take a doe or a whitetail and grind it up for jerky. I have zero respect for the individual that promotes or wants to limit or restrict opportunity while not conforming to THEIR own agenda at present. It reminds me of a friend of mine that shot a rag horn bull to put "meat in the freezer" after passing up cows through much of the season. Did he really want the meat or the label of having killed a "bull" to stroke his ego. Persistence and the ability to eat a deer tag when necessary will produce a big mule deer buck in MT, as opposed to connecting to Onyx and going BM bopping.

so you're actually saying if you want to help out the herds and "walk the talk" you should be shooting does and cows instead of bucks and bulls?

 

[antlerradar]

It would be an interesting and worthwhile exercise to go through old data from other states around the time they “became” pick your weapon, or shortened seasons, etc. See how those changes affected hunter numbers, pressure, etc. at the time and compare to now. We can speculate all we want about this or that but looking at other western state’s experiences might be a better way to get a little more informed on the potential consequences of any particular change. Won’t be the same of course but might shed a little insight.

Back in the early 90's when I was going to school at MSU and my wife to be was teaching school in Idaho Falls, I would shed hunt the mountains south of Bozeman and Dillon in MT and the Mountains north of Idaho Falls. Didn't take long and I quit Montana, the difference in the quality was night and day. In Montana I struggled to find bigger deer antlers and if I did they were years old. In Idaho just about every mountain I went to would add a few big antlers to the collection. This was when I started thinking Montana might not have the best season structure when it came to the health of the deer herd.

 

[finner]

Here's a crazy idea, why don't we shake up the idea of posting videos and social media content that hotspot particular areas and highlight mule deer hunting in R4 and R6:

First Day BUCK! | Montana Jet Boat Deer Hunt (EP.1)

I'm sure most people on this Montana sub-forum are well familiar with how overpressured this section of river is. It's content like this which has resulted in the severe decline of mule deer hunting quality in the Breaks, in this area in particular, and in the corresponding loss of opportunity in Region 4 this year. I don't know how anyone who claims to care about responsible wildlife management and mule deer population management reform can feel comfortable with highlighting a particular area in Region 4. I don't care if you want to shoot 130" bucks, but for the love of God don't tell people where you do it. Anyone want to hazard a guess on how many more people from Washington and Oregon will drag their steelhead sleds over to the Missouri or Yellowstone this year?

I've met Randy on occasion and have seen him at commission meetings and in the Legislature. This is beyond disappointing.

 

[perma]

Oh boy..

 

[Jst_Enuf]

Here's a crazy idea, why don't we shake up the idea of posting videos and social media content that hotspot particular areas and highlight mule deer hunting in R4 and R6:

First Day BUCK! | Montana Jet Boat Deer Hunt (EP.1)

I'm sure most people on this Montana sub-forum are well familiar with how overpressured this section of river is. It's content like this which has resulted in the severe decline of mule deer hunting quality in the Breaks, in this area in particular, and in the corresponding loss of opportunity in Region 4 this year. I don't know how anyone who claims to care about responsible wildlife management and mule deer population management reform can feel comfortable with highlighting a particular area in Region 4. I don't care if you want to shoot 130" bucks, but for the love of God don't tell people where you do it. Anyone want to hazard a guess on how many more people from Washington and Oregon will drag their steelhead sleds over to the Missouri or Yellowstone this year?

I've met Randy on occasion and have seen him at commission meetings and in the Legislature. This is beyond disappointing.

^^^THIS

I was disgusted with everything about that video. I've been searching for the words to express how this feels to me, but just couldn't find them AND try to keep it polite. I'm familiar with that area and am not excited about the outcome/effects that video will have. Ultimate spot burn. Congrats Fresh Tracks, you've done it again!

Title says "Shake IT UP" At this point Im not in favor of shortening seasons or reducing opportunity for Mt residents. If forced to pick one, I'd have to go with eliminating or modifying the two day youth season to whitetail does only as the way to go to protect the greatest number of mule deer bucks while minimizing the impact to DIY hunters and outfitters, etc. Im confident that the above is not a palatable option and will get some folks fired up. I guess if one had the fortitude to pursue this mule deer management seriously they would start by throwing the youth hunters under the bus. What does gravel me is the hypocrisy of SOME promoting additional regulations and yet still shooting a mediocre muley at best during the rut. Take a doe or a whitetail and grind it up for jerky. I have zero respect for the individual that promotes or wants to limit or restrict opportunity while not conforming to THEIR own agenda at present. It reminds me of a friend of mine that shot a rag horn bull to put "meat in the freezer" after passing up cows through much of the season. Did he really want the meat or the label of having killed a "bull" to stroke his ego. Persistence and the ability to eat a deer tag when necessary will produce a big mule deer buck in MT, as opposed to connecting to Onyx and going BM bopping.

^^^AND THIS

For a bunch of guys that preach about how "something has to change" in regards to mule deer hunting in MT, the above video is proof of the hypocrisy/insanity. Calling for shorter seasons, no hunting in November/rut, pick your weapon, pass on younger deer, etc... "Hey, let's load up the jet boats and go hammer any stupid rutting mule deer that are left." ~Randy Newberg

Great shooting too! If that's what you came up with after editing, I can't imagine what really took place. More hypocrisy. Team ethics over here always preaching about limiting distances, taking the time to get a good shot, only taking clean broadside shots at stationary critters, blah blah blah. All of that goes out the window in a bunch of their videos(especially Randy). These guys are below average shooters that can't keep their wits about them when they start yanking the trigger. I'm sure they are all super nice guys. I sincerely mean that. They seem like a good group of people, but damn, they suck for the reasons I mentioned and I wish they'd take a good look in the mirror and ask themselves why they're really doing this. Drop the holier-than-thou act. You(Randy) have created a monster that has done immeasurable/irreversible damage and you refuse to acknowledge it in the slightest. Just keep pumping out those videos, because you're "here to save hunting for future generations", right? As a side note, I DO appreciate the positive things that you do behind the scenes and your involvement in conservation efforts. I just wish the other crap would go away. Wish in one hand...

Anyway, I've officially been converted to a bitter old man and I'm in my 30s. It's going to be a long haul from here.

These guys are already planning their hunts for next year!



Which reminds me... I've got a jet boat for sale if anyone's interested! Already proven itself on that river! I'll throw an "I Fresh Tracks" sticker on it for the new owner!

For the record, I'm not trying to start a fight. I just needed to vent. If this makes ONE person reconsider their true outlook when preaching conservation or when looking at a mediocre buck in the crosshairs, it'll be a win. I feel a little better, but that ain't gonna fix what's about to happen on that river next year or where we're headed as a state! Rant over.

 

[Eric Albus]

How about break it up into shorter seasons on public land and keep long season for private?

This is on the table for discussion and dissection also

 

[Eric Albus]

Why not make it limited entry?

This is also on the table

 

[Forkyfinder]

This is on the table for discussion and dissection also

Now there will just be more pressure in a shorter time? A shorter public season isnt going to help unless its shorter for everyone.

 

[Eric Albus]

Now there will just be more pressure in a shorter time? A shorter public season isnt going to help unless it’s shorter for everyone.

That’s why it’s being dissected

 

[Eric Albus]

I think many here agree with you, as it is reflected in several mule deer decline discussions. I haven't shot a mule deer buck in over a decade and even have passed on does with permits in my pocket the past several years. But maybe that's just me as a spoiled chronologically challenged Montana hunter. What disturbs me (as to which you allude) is the number of small muley bucks posted on HT with the ill-placed caption of pride in shooting a "trophy buck" ... typically a buck which I would be ashamed for anyone to know I killed.
Anymore, I shoot deer with camera.
View attachment 307057View attachment 307058View attachment 307060

Many wonderful things about shooting with a camera:
1. Easy to pack out
2. Don’t have to feel guilty and make family choke down rutty mule deer
3. The buck is there to enjoy next week and for the next guy to “shoot”
4. I can on for hrs the positives to “hunting with a camera In lieu of rifle”

 

[MTLabrador]

This is on the table for discussion and dissection also

Of course it’s on the table (shorter seasons on public land, long seasons on private). It’s about money and being able to sell bucks to paying clients, we can’t get in the way of that.

October only season. No rut hunting, on public or private, with rifle, bow, or muzzleloader.

 

[DFS]

October general rifle season for mule deer would keep the most hunters in the field. Beyond that I would start at nonresident regional caps and that would eventually probably have to go to resident caps as well. I would include a private land only state wide option for the regional caps as well. Pressure needs to be dispersed.

 

[Ben Lamb]

October general rifle season for mule deer would keep the most hunters in the field. Beyond that I would start at nonresident regional caps and that would eventually probably have to go to resident caps as well. I would include a private land only state wide option for the regional caps as well. Pressure needs to be dispersed.

This could be accomplished by making all mule deer hunting permit only.

The permit is good for the region but is capped at a number that can be supported by the resource. That automatically kicks in the 90/10 split.

How you get a formula that equals out to 21-25k NR licenses and resident hunter distribution would need to get worked out.

 

[wtrfwlhunter]

Can somebody point
Me in the direction of these proposed changes for region 4 mule deer?