Montana mule deer

[Point Creep]

The tags are for shooting older age class bucks that most with the main 270 tag would pass on, party for more hunter opportunity and partly to help reduce buck numbers. The bios exact words were that the young 3 point was "not what the tag was for", and that it was too early to tell what a buck like that would look like by age 5, 6 or so.

You mean one like this one? Not only a governor's tag bought at auction, but taken in an alfalfa field on private land in the bitterroot quota unit, after putting help wanted and rewards to be paid signs up?

 

[brockel]

You mean one like this one? Not only a governor's tag bought at auction, but taken in an alfalfa field on private land in the bitterroot quota unit, after putting help wanted and rewards to be paid signs up?

Good lord he’s almost sitting in the next hunting district

 

[TheTone]

Idaho has a few mule deer units with antler point restrictions. I’ve never seen any evidence with those areas being the spot to go for big bucks. One unit that used to have antler point restrictions has probably gotten better since they were done away with. I had some good talks with the warden for that area and he was run ragged during only a one week season following up on dead and left behind 3 points, restriction was 4 pt minimum on one side. He had a great story of his next door neighbor showing off a 3x4 that was shot at 400 plus yards. From what he told me the 4th point on the one side was about 1 1/2 inches long. No way the guy knew, he was just going to ground check it and that’s the wardens neighbor. He told me every year he knew of dead 3 pts on the hill that he just never had time to check out

 

[Ben Lamb]

Anecdotal? haha. You'll be better off waiting for the glaciers to come back than to await a deer/age scientific analysis done by FWP.

If a change is going to be requested, you have to play the game that the regulators are asking for. So where's the data and what does it tell us? Walking in with 50 pissed off bromigos is going to get you nothing.

What does a healthy heard consists of?

The answer, according to those who set the seasons is in here: https://fwp.mt.gov/binaries/content...wildlife-reports/deer/ahm_final_1.15.2001.pdf

 

[antlerradar]

Just an FYI and not looking to to all foodismemory but when FWP added these permits it wasn’t to clean up genetics. They were looking to remove older age class bucks that might be more prone to CWD.
Since the old 3x were generally getting passed by guys with the regular permit they were looking at a way to remove them.

If you took this as I was thinking that this tag would help clean up genetics, I worded my post poorly. With at least half the genes coming from the doe and the limited ability of hunters to judge age and antler potential in the field I think that any attempt to improve the genetics of a deer herd in the wild is a pipe dream. Best to leave the genetic engineering to the high fence people in Texas.

 

[antlerradar]

The tags are for shooting older age class bucks that most with the main 270 tag would pass on, party for more hunter opportunity and partly to help reduce buck numbers. The bios exact words were that the young 3 point was "not what the tag was for", and that it was too early to tell what a buck like that would look like by age 5, 6 or so.

I under stand this. Ideally you would want the tag to be used on a buck four years old or better. Is it too young to tell what a buck is going to turn into when they are. Yes it is. However if a deer is a three point at age two the chances are much better that he will not grow into something big than they are he will. For example the big deer I posted a few pages ago was a four point with better than 60 inch antlers at age 2 1/2. Wasn't much doubt that he was going to be a monster if he lived long enough. I was mostly pointing out that if I was the Bio and a hunter came to rub it in my face, I would rub right back.

 

[520 Road Sow]

I put a vote in to follow Saskatchewan's plan. Which I don't fully know what that is but, I do know it has a significant weapons restriction. One doesn't sacrifice the opportunity with it though. You can get a tag every year if your a resident for archery.

 

[KB_]

Screw it. Open season with archery and muskets only.... Only kidding.

Thread got a little bit off the rails. Just from what I gathers from those of you who have been here for a long time Changing/reducing season dates sounds like the better option for mule deer.

I also took into account that most people can count to 4...so fair play on that correction lol

 

[El Jason]

Is the only value of a mule deer the size of his antlers?

I'm starting to struggle with the reasoning behind being restrictive if the herd is doing ok and the goal is simply bigger antlers.

Agreed, the goal shouldn’t simply be bigger antlers.

Where is the data to show the age structure is where it should be? There’s a good reason why rifle hunting elk in the rut is extremely limited. Why is it okay for mule deer?

 

[huntin24/7]

One thing I think that gets misunderstood with these conversations always seems to be an attitude that guys wanting season changes just want more big bucks for them to chase. While most anyone would want more bigger/older bucks in the herd to pursue, I think most of us in that group wanting change feel that we can do changes that provide ample opportunity still while at the same time allowing more animals to grow to maturity. It doesn’t have to be one or the other (totally managed for opportunity vs. managed strictly for trophy quality).

 

[antlerradar]

Some have cited improvement with four point restrictions on whitetails, and wonder why you can not duplicate with mule deer. When people talk four point with whitetail they are counting the browtines. Not so in mule deer. A four point restriction on mule deer is more like having a five point restriction with whitetails. Think about what that would do to whitetail hunting and how many nice whitetails there are with fewer then five points.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Agreed, the goal shouldn’t simply be bigger antlers.

Where is the data to show the age structure is where it should be? There’s a good reason why rifle hunting elk in the rut is extremely limited. Why is it okay for mule deer?

The reason is because elk are more pronounced during the rut, and fewer in numbers, from what I remember. Ultimately, if you look at the FWP plan, it's because deer hunting is managed for hunter opportunity first, and is likely regarded as a resource that is abundant and in good stead, until there's a disease issue or the herd is below the metric set out in the plan. So part of it is biology, and part of it is "folks like it."

One thing I think that gets misunderstood with these conversations always seems to be an attitude that guys wanting season changes just want more big bucks for them to chase. While most anyone would want more bigger/older bucks in the herd to pursue, I think most of us in that group wanting change feel that we can do changes that provide ample opportunity still while at the same time allowing more animals to grow to maturity. It doesn’t have to be one or the other (totally managed for opportunity vs. managed strictly for trophy quality).

This is a better way to frame this. MT hunters love that opportunity, and for the longest time, defending 11 weeks was critical to ensure public support for hunting. Now, as the world changes, there is a desire to change management philosophies in a state that lives & dies by how many days afield you have each year chasing big game.

 

[MTLabrador]

The reason is because elk are more pronounced during the rut, and fewer in numbers, from what I remember. Ultimately, if you look at the FWP plan, it's because deer hunting is managed for hunter opportunity first, and is likely regarded as a resource that is abundant and in good stead, until there's a disease issue or the herd is below the metric set out in the plan. So part of it is biology, and part of it is "folks like it."


This is a better way to frame this. MT hunters love that opportunity, and for the longest time, defending 11 weeks was critical to ensure public support for hunting. Now, as the world changes, there is a desire to change management philosophies in a state that lives & dies by how many days afield you have each year chasing big game.

What’s wrong with opportunity in October instead of opportunity in November? Opportunity doesn’t mean you need to kill oblivious bucks with their nose up a doe’s ass.

 

[Ben Lamb]

What’s wrong with opportunity in October instead of opportunity in November? Opportunity doesn’t mean you need to kill oblivious bucks with their nose up a doe’s ass.

When it's how your family has done it for the last 4 generations, there's more to it than just what dies. You're dealing with tradition & family memories. Both of those are a lot stronger emotions than age class of mule deer.

 

[Point Creep]

When it's how your family has done it for the last 4 generations, there's more to it than just what dies. You're dealing with tradition & family memories. Both of those are a lot stronger emotions than age class of mule deer.

What a complete crock of shit, and why it will never change in MT. Too many people with a very very low bar for satisfaction on what deer hunting could be like in MT.

 

[antlerradar]

You mean one like this one? Not only a governor's tag bought at auction, but taken in an alfalfa field on private land in the bitterroot quota unit, after putting help wanted and rewards to be paid signs up?

Had to be one of the most entertaining threads ever on HT

 

[MTLabrador]

When it's how your family has done it for the last 4 generations, there's more to it than just what dies. You're dealing with tradition & family memories. Both of those are a lot stronger emotions than age class of mule deer.

My eastern Montana family has done it for 4 generations, and I wish like hell it would change.

 

[520 Road Sow]

If you started in the middle of August with a 900 tag for deer and went to the end of October you'd still have a 10 or 11 week season.

Hunting the rut in places like the Custer, Bitter Creek Wilderness, Missouri Breaks, basically all of the stuff on the eastern side or even the western side is basically a slaughter. Not many NR willing to eat a 650 dollar buck tag if they got a last chance opportunity in front of them and too many residents get out for the Thanksgiving day massacre.

I would say it's safe to say there are plenty of management scenarios out there that are managing for trophy potential. They just don't word it that way.

 

[timmy]

When it's how your family has done it for the last 4 generations, there's more to it than just what dies. You're dealing with tradition & family memories. Both of those are a lot stronger emotions than age class of mule deer.

That’s nice, but when the mule deer herd can’t handle it it’s time for a change. People can experience those same warm memories in October.

 

[KB_]

Had to be one of the most entertaining threads ever on HT

Kind of regretting bringing up the antler points thing at this point haha. Should of kept that one to myself.