Montana General Season Structure Proposal 3.0

[bigsky2]

Get Better Montana Mule Deer Hunting

Podcast Episode · Rokcast · 06/23/2025 · 1h 26m

podcasts.apple.com

 

[Hobbes]

Ive not read the whole thread but glad someone is concerned about MT mule deer. Ive sent written comments wherever and wherever allowed. I think lately on the request for MD comments and on the request for season structure comments.

Im sure my opinion has been crushed somewhere in the thread or in others but here goes. This doesn't have to be so complicated.

Leave elk season alone.

Leave deer start and end dates alone.
Close MD to general license after either Nov. 1 or first week of Nov. Limited MD permit by district from that date to end of season. Set numbers of limited MD rut permits based on herd health. Limit nonresidents to no more than 10% MD rut permits. Limited rut hunts do not decimate herds in other states, but unlimited general rut hunts are not sustainable. If it was general for residents only it would come closer to being sustainable but needs to move to limited.

Eliminate the combo permit nonsense. Adjust elk and deer combo accordingly, but eliminate 25% of total non-resident general deer licenses.

Leave the heritage season as is.

Tell fwp and the outfitters to pull their head out of the sand on MD.

 

[rmyoung1]

Ive not read the whole thread but glad someone is concerned about MT mule deer. Ive sent written comments wherever and wherever allowed. I think lately on the request for MD comments and on the request for season structure comments.

Im sure my opinion has been crushed somewhere in the thread or in others but here goes. This doesn't have to be so complicated.

Leave elk season alone.

Leave deer start and end dates alone.
Close MD to general license after either Nov. 1 or first week of Nov. Limited MD permit by district from that date to end of season. Set numbers of limited MD rut permits based on herd health. Limit nonresidents to no more than 10% MD rut permits. Limited rut hunts do not decimate herds in other states, but unlimited general rut hunts are not sustainable. If it was general for residents only it would come closer to being sustainable but needs to move to limited.

Eliminate the combo permit nonsense. Adjust elk and deer combo accordingly, but eliminate 25% of total non-resident general deer licenses.

Leave the heritage season as is.

Tell fwp and the outfitters to pull their head out of the sand on MD.

Unfortunately, it’s way more complicated than that. The working group that has generated these proposals has pointed out those nuances ad nauseam. Going back and reading these MT mule deer proposal threads would be enlightening if you have the time. Threading the needle isn’t easy

 

[Forkyfinder]

Ive not read the whole thread but glad someone is concerned about MT mule deer. Ive sent written comments wherever and wherever allowed. I think lately on the request for MD comments and on the request for season structure comments.

Im sure my opinion has been crushed somewhere in the thread or in others but here goes. This doesn't have to be so complicated.

Leave elk season alone.

Leave deer start and end dates alone.
Close MD to general license after either Nov. 1 or first week of Nov. Limited MD permit by district from that date to end of season. Set numbers of limited MD rut permits based on herd health. Limit nonresidents to no more than 10% MD rut permits. Limited rut hunts do not decimate herds in other states, but unlimited general rut hunts are not sustainable. If it was general for residents only it would come closer to being sustainable but needs to move to limited.

Eliminate the combo permit nonsense. Adjust elk and deer combo accordingly, but eliminate 25% of total non-resident general deer licenses.

Leave the heritage season as is.

Tell fwp and the outfitters to pull their head out of the sand on MD.

Better write FWP that you feel that way.

 

[Hobbes]

Better write FWP that you feel that way.

I have and will continue to do so.

 

[Hobbes]

Unfortunately, it’s way more complicated than that. The working group that has generated these proposals has pointed out those nuances ad nauseam. Going back and reading these MT mule deer proposal threads would be enlightening if you have the time. Threading the needle isn’t easy

Oh I know. I've read threads here and rokslide in the past, argued and bitched my point of view online and in person to other montana residents. Everyone has their own opinions from it doesn't need fixed to close it down completely. Throw in outfitters, public opinion , legislators that should stay the heck out of it, youth, coming home to hunt, non-resident/fwp funding, ranchers, insurance, etc. etc., etc. and it's a cluster. But.......IF we could just do what is right by mule deer and could ignore the majority of the rest , would it be that hard.

I'm still happy there is a group looking for solutions.

 

[Tukudeka]

In the podcast I was surprised to hear that the CSO group’s proposal really isn’t about bigger/older mule deer. Rather, the intent of the proposal is to reduce hunter crowding and increase buck harvest by making them hunt-able while they are on public land. I had thought these proposals have been about saving a few bucks to age a bit and put on a little antler.

What exactly is the desired outcome? How will it be measured?

Also, it is hard for me to understand why randomly sampled harvest data to infer harvest stats is trash but randomly sampled age data would be required to infer harvested age stats.

 

[cgasner1]

In the podcast I was surprised to hear that the CSO group’s proposal really isn’t about bigger/older mule deer. Rather, the intent of the proposal is to reduce hunter crowding and increase buck harvest by making them hunt-able while they are on public land. I had thought these proposals have been about saving a few bucks to age a bit and put on a little antler.

What exactly is the desired outcome? How will it be measured?

Also it is hard for me to understand why randomly sampled harvest data to infer harvest stats is trash but randomly sampled age data would be required to infer harvested age stats.

I’m just speaking for myself but the desired outcome is more bucks on the landscape in the last 10 years the place I hunt it has taken a hard nose dive. More bucks on the landscape may result in some bigger bucks but I’d just like to see some deer like I was 8-10 years ago

 

[antlerradar]

In the podcast I was surprised to hear that the CSO group’s proposal really isn’t about bigger/older mule deer. Rather, the intent of the proposal is to reduce hunter crowding and increase buck harvest by making them hunt-able while they are on public land. I had thought these proposals have been about saving a few bucks to age a bit and put on a little antler.

What exactly is the desired outcome? How will it be measured?

Also, it is hard for me to understand why randomly sampled harvest data to infer harvest stats is trash but randomly sampled age data would be required to infer harvested age stats.

That is right, Bigger bucks is not the goal, but it may result in some older buck and that would be a bonus. Crowding is a big issue and so is the march towards LE.

 

[Forkyfinder]

One of the conclusions in the podcast is that R hunter pressure is one of the primary drivers.

Using 2004 as the baseline can make that argument - but if you excluded 2004 and 2005 - theres not much of an upward trend.

 

[El Jason]

One of the conclusions in the podcast is that R hunter pressure is one of the primary drivers.

Using 2004 as the baseline can make that argument - but if you excluded 2004 and 2005 - theres not much of an upward trend.

View attachment 376399

It would be interesting to overlay that graph with data showing number of private acres enrolled in public access programs.

 

[Forkyfinder]

It would be interesting to overlay that graph with data showing number of private acres enrolled in public access programs.

It doesnt look like an explosion of hunters at all, just an explosion in the lack of huntable land.

One thing that suprises md about that - itd seem like deer age class and antler size would grow (at least on private) but thats not been what ive heard.

 

[El Jason]

It doesnt look like an explosion of hunters at all, just an explosion in the lack of huntable land.

One thing that suprises md about that - itd seem like deer age class and antler size would grow (at least on private) but thats not been what ive heard.

85k to 100k hunter days is a big increase.

 

[antlerradar]

It doesnt look like an explosion of hunters at all, just an explosion in the lack of huntable land.

One thing that suprises md about that - itd seem like deer age class and antler size would grow (at least on private) but thats not been what ive heard.

Private land gets highgraded for bigger deer. There may be fewer hunters but those hunters are targeting the best of the bucks. It is not hard to be selective on private land during the rut and as a result the best bucks die young on all but the most intensively managed properties. Even on those properties a 170 class three or four year old is probably on the target list. On the other hand bucks with poor quality antlers will die of old age and never get shot.

 

[Forkyfinder]

85k to 100k hunter days is a big increase.

7 of those years had higher than last year.

2004 is a great point of reference for the argument. Start it at 2008.

 

[cgasner1]

7 of those years had higher than last year.

2004 is a great point of reference for the argument. Start it at 2008.

I believe the argument started at 2004 for a 20 year average if anything we should take it back to 94 and use a 30 year

 

[El Jason]

It would also be interesting to look at hunter days distribution across the season.

 

[El Jason]

2004 is a great point of reference for the argument. Start it at 2008.

And that’s how you end up with shifting baselines.

 

[cgasner1]

And that’s how you end up with shifting baselines.

I don’t like the numbers on 20 year averages so let’s cut the 20% out

 

[El Jason]

I don’t like the numbers on 20 year averages so let’s cut the 20% out

Aka cherry picking.