Miller, say your sorry....

[schmalts]

Or your gay on the hornady die post, and i will send you a concentricity gauge that i made.
If you are not checking your bullet runout with the WSM loads you should be. The big shoulder angle on the WSM's lend to some bad runout at times compared to long actions and those can be flyers.
I made up a few different versions of concentricity gauges and i will send you one of the earlier models. It works great, but i just did something different on my end model and won't ever use this one.
Here is the one i will send you minus the indicator (you can get one from harbor freight for under 10 bucks)

Here is the one I am keeping

 

[1_pointer]

I need to learn to do some metal work! That looks great and I'm guessing it was a bit less $$ than the RCBS version... I've got a gift card to Sportsman's Whorehouse, maybe I'll use it on something like that instead of a chronograph.

 

[schmalts]

funny you mention that, i just bought a chrony today. had a hard time justifying it since i borrowed one from a bud once in a while and once you check your pet loads they become kind of dust collectors, but i used the money i made from that Weatherby brass i picked up at the range to buy it..
Pointer, i have done some experimenting and found that loads with over .003 runout start to open groups on some bullets. With the WSM i found that about every 4 out of 10 will exceed .004 and 2 out of those 4 may exceed .006 runout. Like i said, i think it is because of the huge shoulder and steep angle on those loads.
I also made an aluminum plate with 4 holes in it that are all .0005 bigger than the next and find the one that fits the tightest around the loaded neck and use that to tweak the out of round bullets back under .003 runout. I clamp the plate in the vice and find the high spot with the run out gauge then without losing that high spot move the cartridge into the plate and give it a little pressure to bend it back into spec. You can even feel the case yield when it gets bent back and i really think it is because it is where the case wants to be.
You need to get a tight fit around the neck, and not the bullet because if you use the bullet for support you will lose your neck tension on the bullet.

 

[BuzzH]

Just a question...but why mess with the WSM's if they're such a fussy pile of crap?

I've heard of all sorts of problems with them...not feeding right, this problem with runout, etc.

It would be one thing if they actually out-performed the standards...but the fact is they dont.

Reinvented the wheel and then added a flat tire to it.

I dont know, I just like to throw some powder in a case, seat a bullet and go shoot inch or less groups without having to worry about this kind of crap.

From the latest Schmalts installments on the wsm's I'd never own one...what a pain in the ass.

 

[Delw]

I wouldnt use that for a concentricty guage it wouldnt even be close.

Just get a v-block even a cheaper one will give you true results, that has way to many parts in it and different surfaces to check anything accurately.

 

[schmalts]

Delw. it only looks that way. The 2 balls nearest to the stop are slightly larger than the others/rails so the case will only roll on the rear balls and the surface or rail area closest to the shoulder. The balls or dowel pins do not actually roll, they are glued in stationary and have no movement just as a v-block but have less surface contact to roll the case easier. Trust me, it works slick, better than a v-block for this application, and with a v-block you need a place to mount an indicator which is a pain in the ass unless like you have a surface table handy. You could modify a V-block, but then where do you put the indicator to make it somewhat light and portable. Then the v-block would need to be real shallow so you can use your finger to roll the part better. I used both, and liked this much better than the V-block and that is what I went with.
there is a reason companies like Sinclair use balls VS v-blocks. Either will work, but one rolls the case easier and more accurate. With a v-block one little dent in a case will cause a false reading, where with a ball setup you are rolling on a very small area and the whole case is not being read. We are not worried about case deformation as much as concentric of bullet to the average of the case. here is the sinclair tool
http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=REMTCG&item=09-150&type=store

Buzz, have you ever checked runout on any of your ammo? not just a WSM thing, but a little more on them yes. Not a bad thing to do, even more so when making pet loads to eliminate why there may be a flyer in a group, same with trimming case length it all helps out. I guess i am crazy but I go and shoot for fun a lot and just getting under an inch is not as fun as trying to get 3 bullet holes touching or in the same hole and you wont be doing that with bent up ammo. If your happy just getting guns MOA, don't look at runout, it will be a waste of time but there isn't a benchrest shooter out there that doesn't check runout on his loads to eliminate the chance of a flyer.
As for the "why buy a WSM" question, yea I asked myself that as well. I guess all said and done when i decided to buy a light mountain rifle i guess I decided to put up with the extra grief to use the WSM. But i do hear ya, all said and done the 7mm and the 300 already had a magnum, but the 270 didn't unless you wanted to go weatherby and we all know what that costs to shoot.
On this new gun, i guess i stuck with the WSM again to keep it the lightest as possible, and because i already had bought a ton of brass, but the Win mag was tempting to say the least.
BTW, this new gun shoots great and I am happy with it.

 

[1_pointer]

Schmaltz- Thanks for the info! You are obviously in getting into the realm of want over need, but that kind of accuracy is never a bad thing. Besides, it beats playing golf!

Buzz- I can see a whole lot of merit in the WSMs when executed properly. Near standard magnum punch in a .308 class weight of rifle. Just about any one of them would be great for anything short of big bears in NA...

 

[schmalts]

Pointer, the gauges cost me little more than time. So want and need not much of an issue

 

[BuzzH]

Pointer,

I dont know...I'm not sold on your logic on the wsms.

For the troubles associated with them, I dont think having a weight difference of a pound is worth it.

If I wanted a light-weight 308 class rifle I'd buy a 308...which also would be good for anything short of the big bears in NA...without all the hassle of the wsm. Plus, brass would be cheaper, use less powder, likely more accurate, larger selection of rifles to choose from, etc. etc.

Also, you dont get anywhere NEAR standard magnum performance when you jump to the upper end of bullet weightswith the wsm. Try shooting 200 grain bullets out of a 300 wsm and get anywhere near the performance of the 300 win or 300 weatherby. Not even close. IMO the magnum 30's really shine with the 200's or even 220's.

In Schmalts situation...with a ton of brass already, etc. it makes some sense.

I dont know...just too much to worry about for a lack of any real gain for me. I like simple and reliable when it comes to a hunting rifle.

To each their own.

 

[schmalts]

Buzz the Wsm's are all a little different. In the case of the 300 you are correct, you can get better performance in the Win mag because they can be loaded higher. Winchester lists the 300 ballistics maxed out, and sell them that way as well. I only bought one box of factory ammo and it was federal fusion and i got a hard bolt handle lift on every shot so that tells me they were HOT.
I think the best use of the WSM is the .270 because like i said before, there really isnt a magnum in that besides the Weatherby.
The 7mm WSM, now that's a gay cartridge

 

[BuzzH]

Schmalts,

I agree with you on the 270 wsm.

I'd still likely go with the 270 weatherby...I almost bought one several years ago.

Another one I considered was the 257 weatherby...that is about the only weatherby round I'm still kind of impressed with. I bet that thing is a deer and antelope killing machine.

Instead a 7mm mag is my preferred antelope and deer rifle these days. My Dad won it in a raffle for $20 and had no use for it. So being the nice guy I am, I've given that rifle a nice home.

 

[Calif. Hunter]

I tried and tried to get a .270 WSM Vanguard to shoot - it just wouldn't cooperate. I tried just about every bullet and powder combo, changed scopes, etc. I gave up and sold it.

I bought a Weatherby Vanguard in .257 and it shoots well under an inch consistently. It is just about my favorite rifle. Between it and a .300 Win Mag, I am well-served for NA big game. For small stuff, I have a .243 and a couple of .22 centerfires.

 

[IDHunters]

I have the 270 WSM in the Model 70. It really likes the 150 grain bullets. Shoots the "worst" with 130 grain.

Personally think this is the best combo I have owned, outshoots the 7 mag which is in the lightweight short barrel Weatherby Vanguard (which may be some of the problem).

 

[Dangerous Dave]

Schmaltz, your concentricty gauge is an interesting idea -I might have to make something like it someday. It might save me a few costly steps.
Question: Are you full-length sizing or neck-sizing only or both? Which mode has the higher failure rate as far as run-out is concerned?
When I used to have a funky batch of reloads give poor accuracy for a normally very accurate rifle, I'd use new brass and the problem would dissappear. Maybe it was a concentricty issue all along?

 

[schmalts]

Dave, been full length sizing. I read reports that guys had trouble only neck sizing because of the large shoulder got bent so i have avoided it . That is why the lee collet die is something i may try because it may not push the shoulder as much the way it works. Cabelas didn't stock the Lee so i ended up getting the RCBS instead to replace the crappy Hornady die.
Talked to Miller a bit ago and he said he has had some luck neck sizing only, and he also has had the same trouble with hard bolt close because the shoulder not getting bumped on sizing.

 

[schmalts]

Miller, here is the indicator you will need to buy.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=623

and if anyone else cares, this is the EXACT SAME calipers Cabelas sells in thier own packaging for $54.00 This one goes on sale at times for $12
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=47257

 

[Dangerous Dave]

Gotcha, Schmalts. I have Lee Collet Dies in .270, .30-06 and 7mag. They work perfectly and smoothly every time UNLESS the shoulder gets "bent" as you say. If that happens -forget it- that cartridge will NEVER chamber. I've had to dissassemble the round and full length resize. Luckly, I don't do that anymore because I chamber the unloaded cases (sized, but no primer, powder or bullet) into the rifle to test them for correct sizing first -then load later.

 

[1_pointer]

Buzz- I guess we just won't agree on everything... BTW, I don't plan on buying one myself, but can see the rationale and don't see how they're any harder to deal with than a regular. I plan on getting/building a 270 Win to go with my .338 for my two 'serious' rifles. The rest will be just fun...

Just a question...but why mess with the WSM's if they're such a fussy pile of crap?

'Course the same thing could be said about wood stocks...

 

[BuzzH]

I should have known from the start I wouldnt convince a guy that likes plastic stocks...

 

[1_pointer]

Hey, at least I like and shoot the .338 Win, so I can't be all that bad can I..?