Leupold VX-III 4.5-14 CDS problems!!

[Big Fin]

MT,
....I see hundreds of Leupolds shot and used every year. 80% of them have issues straight out of the box whether it's canted reticles, incorrect adjustments, inconsistent adjustments, failure to return to zero, etc. Within a few hundred rounds most will have lost zero or have a significant problem.


All the people that say they've never had a problem is an interesting phenomenon and either means that they don't shoot all that much and/or don't test their scopes for tracking, repeatability and return to zero.

For a guy who does a lot of testing, your use of round numbers and personal assurances is rather intriguing.

In my meetings last week, we got to see how the military technology side of Leupold's scopes, which is huge, has been migrating to their tactical products and is being adapted to their hunting scopes.

You've not identified what you do in your daily work to shoot as much as you do. I suspect you might be in some sort of military or armament business. Maybe you work for a competing optics company. If you are in the military, thanks for your service. And if so, you are probably aware that there are more Luepold scopes on US military sniper systems than all other brands COMBINED.

The military comes in and audits Leupold's quality control and performs their own tests. Results of those tests are far different than your rounded off numbers listed above. Leupold cannot share a lot of those specifics, due to restrictions in their military contracts, but when asked what the audited defect rate was, the US military extrapolated that the sample size would have to be 10,000 tested items to get more than 10 defective items.

According to your precise 80% number, that would mean 8,000 of the Leupold scopes were defective, yet the US Military says less than 10 would be defective. Maybe there is an explanation of that difference of 80% versus 0.1%, difference of 800X in magnitude.

Care to share how you arrived at your 80% number?

.......As it seems you work somewhere that things such as this are tested, what scope/scopes do you reccommend, and what tests do you perform to test them?

I agree with VA. I would be interested to know the testing you do, for whom you do the testing, where it is published or how it is used, and how you arrive at your conclusions in the posts to this thread.

 

[Big Fin]

Have owned 10 or 12 from VariX II to VX6....yes, a few zero hold problems but all were corrected with attachment or rifle issue resolution...not one Leupold issue.

Formidilosus, sounds like you have some extensive info to share...stick around & let's hear some. There are plenty of optics/ballistics threads.Leupold also does some good work sponsoring this free site...just saying.

What Harley mentions, and that I have bolded above, is the most common reason Leupold finds for a person reporting problems with their scope. Leupold has most every make and caliber of rifle known to man down in their test dungeon. If a person reports a problem, Leupold can find out what model and caliber the person is using and test the scope on one of their rifles of the same make and caliber.

Leupold tracks their return rates. And of those scopes that are returned, what is the cause of the return, and what defect existed with the scope, if any. They return rate is less than 2%. Of the 2% that are returned, less than 2% of those are a defect in the scope. That gets to a .04% rate of defect, very similar to the almost immeasurable Military audit rate stated above.

When asked the most common reason for scopes being returned, mounting was the most common issue. Mounting issues can be in how it was mounted, incorrect hardware used for mounting, or mounted so far off from zero that to get a zero no remaining travel could be provided by the windage and elevation settings.

Leopold might not want me to say this, but here is something they often do if you send a scope in and they find out you are using non-Leupold mounting systems. They will send you new Leupold mounting systems for your scope. They have found it is way easier and less expensive to provide high quality Leupold mounting systems for free than it is to continually try to help solve a perceived scope problem that is really a mounting problem. Since MTGunner said he was using Burris mounts, I am interested to know if Leupold offered to replace his mounts with Leupold mounts.

Another problem is that often the rifle's barrels/receivers/actions are not lined up to the proper tolerances. As such, no scope in the world can solve that problem.

The Leupold folks are too polite to say how much the human error of lack of knowledge factor contributes to the number of returns. Having spent enough time at the range, I can see that being another big factor in the problem that someone wants to attribute to a scope.

Given Leupold has such huge amount of rifles and so much testing equipment, they can replicate any problem reported by a user. They want to know if it is a manufacturer defect, so they are meticulous in how they analyze it.

When you go down in that testing lab you see a bunch of mad scientists wearing lab coats. They all proclaim to have the world's best job, shooting all day long, trouble shooting some of the most obscure problems in the shooting world, and trying to break anything that is provided to them for testing.

Since I have been a Leupold rifle scope owner long before shaving was part of my worries, I am supportive of the company and their rifle scopes. That is why they have been part of this TV show from the beginning.

That said, a few days at their factory talking to engineers, along with signing the non-disclosure statement that allows for the most in-depth tour they can give, has taken what was previously a personal opinion about their commitment to quality product and quality service, and proven to me that what I previously held as an opinion is now validated as a fact. If ever you are in Beaverton, OR, no matter what scope you use on your rifle, I can assure you that even the abbreviated factory tour will make a big impression on you.

For anyone reading this discussion, don't take it from me. You all know I am part of the home team. Do what I did. Talk to, or read about, the military Special Forces and sniper guys who use Leupold scopes in the field and advise Leupold on the products being produced. Some now work for Leupold; some are consultants. Those guys have been through stuff that to properly describe needs a much more descriptive word than badass. A few of their testimonials is enough to make be feel like a candyass punk for what little abuse my hunting activity will impart on equipment.

I will be interested to know how the problem Gunner has experienced gets resolved. And no, the scope is not made in China or the Philippines. It is made in Beaverton, Oregon.

 

[Gr8bawana]

Thank you Randy for expounding on what most of us already know about Leoupold and their quality.
You notice that Formidilosus has been strangely qiete since being called out on his claims.

 

[hank4elk]

Who?.....................................lol
The only reason there is not a Leupold on my go to gun now is I found a Zeiss to replace the Leupold Rifleman for half price...............otherwise it would have been a VX-3.
The cheap Rifleman model has been thru the mill and back with all it's scratches and a good dent......and it was still dead on when I took it off. Course it wasn't a spin dial type.

 

[VAspeedgoat]

Big Fin, your ability as a writer is second only to your ability as a sportsmans advocate. Thank you for putting in writing what we were all thinking without being as hostile as we would have been.

 

[hank4elk]

Big Fin, your ability as a writer is second only to your ability as a sportsmans advocate. Thank you for putting in writing what we were all thinking without being as hostile as we would have been.

Eloquently put VA,I was at a loss for printable words...............

 

[Dan O]

Big Fin Thank you for sharing this information. I have a 4.5 - 14 CDS on my 300wb and it is a great scope. It is a high quality scope and it along with 3 VXII 3 -9, VXIII 2.5 -8, VXIII 6.5 -20, VX 2x pistol scope's have never let me down. I do have a few Burris scope's and never had a problem with them either but the side by side comparison the clarity and brightness goes to the Leupold's every time.
Your in depth explanation of the testing and quality control program was VERY informative and justifies to me the extra $ spent over the completion's scopes PLUS it's made in America and the customer service is so good.
Dan O

 

[Formidilosus]

Bigfin,


I understand your position, but no. I assure you that most who have a choice do not use Leupolds. In any case if you want to use the "used on more sniper rifles" argument I would suggest you research how most Sniper Weapon Systems are evaluated and awarded contracts. In short, the scopes can be whatever the rifle manufactur wants to submit and they are not tested separately. Leupold has the market cornered on pairing with weapon manufactures.

Recently there was an evaluation for a specific SWS and one brand and model of scope had/has more failures than all others combined. The only Leupold that has won a full and open competition are the original 10x Ultra M3A's and the Mark 8 1.1-8x for a specific user. In both cases no other scopes were submitted to compete with specs.



I do not work for, nor am I a fan of anyone in the scope industry.

You notice that Formidilosus has been strangely qiete since being called out on his claims.

That's because I've been busy shooting these-









On these.....





That was from last week and those are two separate scopes. There were three 3.5-10x40mm Mark 4's in use. Two of the three had condensation and/or fogged on the inside while in use. One was on the objective side one on the ocular. Three of five 4.5-14x Mark 4's deadlined the three sniper rifles that they were mounted on.





But cheer up..... I've been "called out"....

 

[VAspeedgoat]

Form, I think that we would all take your opinions seriously if you would ever tell how it is you test these scopes or what company/group you work with. So far we have your assurances that you are right and that's it. Further more I think that Big Finn was trying to point out how he saw first hand that leupold is testing their scopes and then contrast that to assertions made by you with no example of how you arrived at these conclusions. It may be you are 100% right, but give us some data and how you tested this. So far I've asked you as well as others. How do you test the scopes?

 

[Formidilosus]

They are mostly tested by shooting. Lots and lots of shooting. I see a bunch of rifles shot and used every year and I don't control all of them, but when I'm running the range all of the scopes get checked to ensure that they are mounted properly, bases tight, etc. Afterwards each gun is zeroed correctly using statistically relevant size shot groups (10 rounds), then a tracking test is done with a tall target board. The tall target has dots spaced every .5 mil for mil scopes and every 2 MOA for MOA scopes. While aiming at the bottom dot for all rounds the scope is adjusted up .5mil/2moa shot, 1mil/4moa shot, 1.5mil/6moa shot, etc., for 10 mils/40moa or the limit of travel in the scope is reached. Note and mark the rounds and reverse it going down to zero. REAL easy to see what scopes do what.

For all of my guns I have ammo that is specifically for checking zero. All of it is from the same lot or components of handloads, and regardless of what loads I play with or use, the zero gets checked often with this ammo. Everyday the gun is shot a zero confirmation is done first. Again REAL easy to see which guns/scopes hold zero and which do not. This one is why so many believe that their scopes work "perfect". The vast majority of military shooters get a different lot of ammo every time they shoot, and most hunters/shooters tinker with loads so often there is no way for them to know if zero has shifted.


Knowing how to mount, zero, test properly and then shooting the mess out of them is most of the battle. For my scopes or scopes I am testing I go a couple steps further. I mount the scopes to a rest that locks it in and then can check tracking every .1mil or .25 MOA against a calibrated board. I will check zero retention through impact testing, especially side impacts as that's what causes issues, and then put a few hundred/thousand mils of adjustments between shots while checking return to zero.


It is correct that most hunting scopes do not see extreme use, however, if you are dialing on that turret it better work correctly every time. The problem of course is that most have no clue how to even check. Very, very few hunting scopes from ANY manufacturer will survive simply zeroing, testing tracking and return to zero without big enough problems to cause a miss or wound on big game at any range one needs to dial.

 

[VAspeedgoat]

Thanks for the info. I think my yearly zero check is probably not as intensive as what you described, lol. Thanks for better explaining what it is you have done. Because of this thread I am having dual erector springs installed on my vx-r to "help" with some of this on my new custom gun. I'm still a leupold guy but do appreciate the insight.

 

[mtmuley]

Form, you guys drinking energy drinks while shooting? mtmuley

 

[Formidilosus]

Form, you guys drinking energy drinks while shooting? mtmuley

Most couldn't function without them. On rotation days can average 18-19 hours per, day after day. I've moved to Monster Rehabs as they're not quite as "potent" as normal energy drinks and they actually do a good job with hydration.

 

[mtmuley]

Buddy talked me into a Rockstar on the way to the range one day. Worst shooting I've ever done. First and only energy drink I've ever had. No effects like that for you guys? mtmuley

 

[Formidilosus]

0Your system gets used to it. Most will have the same effects you did if they don't drink them now.


If you drink 6 cups of coffee every morning.... Don't skip it on the morning you go to the range.... grin...

 

[The Hedgehog]

When I first set up a rifle to take longer range shots, I chose a Leupold VXIII 4.5 X 14 and had the target turret installed by Leupold. After a few years messing with it, I was convinced that the turret/tracking was not reliable. As soon as I put on a scope that was designed for this, Bushnell LRHS, my rifle was putting bullets in the X-ring at ranges I'd never shot at before. It's a nice scope, for the price and features it has. I liked the glass on all the leupold scopes I've had better than the LRHS, but the reticle and tracking was the foundation of why I used that scope. I have several Leupold scopes, but have only had one experience with a turret, and it was not their M1. I really like the MX6 I have. The 4.5X14 was fine if I left the turret alone. Although compared to many, I have only a tiny amount of exposure to long range shooting, I do know if somebody is planning on sniping game at 600-1000 yards or farther, you better have proven everything you're doing, in advance, and I'd personally be surprised if anybody doing it consistently doesn't have a very expensive rifle scope with a proven turret/reticle. If I had more $, I'd be picking up S&B PMII. They are expensive, and heavy, but if you put the time in, I've seen what they can do. Like Formidilosis says, all the pieces matter, more than just the scope.

 

[gspman]

I have had the same problem, Sent the scope back 3 times. Each time it cam back with a report that they re zero's the cross hairs.
Take it to the range, after 3 shot right back to lost zero. Sent it in the last time, they sent it back. Sold the scope to someone who was going to put it on a .243
Evidently it cant handle a stoked up 300Win mag
I bought a vortex HS LR, never happier

 

[sbhooper]

Well, this has my old head spinning! Thank you Fin for your Leupold breakdown and Form for your very in-depth tests and opinions on the dial-a-shot scopes.

For all of the reasons discussed and cussed here, that is why I do not use dial-a-shot. I don't care what brand you have, when you are spinning small turrets day in and day out, they can fail at the most in-opportune time. I will stay with my range-finding reticles and within 600 yards.

I understand that for military use, they are a game changer however.

Good info.

 

[WapitiBob]

Something to be said for dialing up 600 and being able to hold on center.

 

[sbhooper]

Something to be said for dialing up 600 and being able to hold on center.

Nice!