Lead fragments in hunter harvested deer

[jryoung]

Chris is one of the coolest guys you'll meet, passionate and dedicated to his research. I switched long before I ever met him, but there's no doubt I would have switched as soon as I met him if I hadn't already. He just knows his shit and knows how to communicate it. I'd love to be with him when someone comes up to him and spits conspiracy theories at him, it'd be damn entertaining.

 

[rtraverdavis]

Get some Hammers. Hammers are why I'm shooting copper this year. And I'm not done with my lead bullets. Probly never will be. mtmuley

I look forward to hearing how they work on your elk hunt. I’ve got an Accubond load that I have a lot of confidence in that I’ll be using this year, but next year I’ll start tinkering.

 

[SixPoint]

I switched to copper several years ago after talking to an eagle biologist. We also had Chris come out and give a presentation for folks in the Ruby- he’s great! More recently I’ve switched my rim fire ammunition, both .22lr and .17hmr, to non lead for shooting ground squirrels. This has a huge impact to raptors scavanging carcasses. Regarding the concerns over the cost of non lead ammo, prices are the same as lead now with the exception of the extremely cheap ammo. Federal released a new round last fall in solid copper that is reasonably priced and works extremely well. There are also more rim fire options becoming available every year.

Thanks for having Chris on the podcast and for discussing this issue. Presenting hunters with the facts and letting them make their own informed decisions is the way to go.

 

[Bigjay73]

I don't really care about the lead being ingested by people, even kids. I think if you use a good controlled expansion bullet, the impacts are minimal at best. At my age, I really don't really give a shit about tiny amounts of lead. I butcher all my own game and my philosophy of "when in doubt, throw it out" limits lead exposure to about zero. I also try to stay off shoulders and other large bones, shoot controlled expansion bullets, and carefully watch my shot placement, both because it makes a mess, and secondly because of the lead. I also try to make sure all my bullets exit, or at the very least, make it to the off-side so I can recover them.

But, the impacts to birds, I do care about that and honestly if I make the switch to all copper it will for the potential impacts to wildlife.

I do have concerns about all copper bullets and their performance, in particular in rifles shooting less than 3k FPS in regard to how they kill game. I also hate having to work up new loads for every rifle I own.

If this is something that is going to be legislated, I hope the bullet manufacturers continue to work on improving the all copper bullets. I also hope they work with rifle manufacturers to extend magazine length and throat geometry to something better suited for all copper.

My 2 cents.

This is where I'm at. All the studies I can find show marginal difference in lead levels of those who eat wild game vs store bought meat, and the levels were well below the CDC's recommended levels. The thought of harming other creatures though is definitely something to consider, and should be important to those of us that enjoy this resource. I just cannot get solids to shoot acceptably through my rifles yet, though I have only tried Barnes bullets so far. Good bullets, I just can't find the right recipe. I'm a Nosler guy anyways, so hopefully E tips will be the ticket. I'll tinker with them after this years hunting season.

 

[NoWiser]

I've shot copper exclusively since 2011 and will never go back to lead. I insist that anyone who wants to process their meat with me shoots copper as well. My daughter's first ever solid food was chunk of elk steak when she was 6 months old. She's had wild game meat for most meals since then and I'm not ok with there even being a chance of lead in her food. I have found exactly zero reasons to not switch to copper.

 

[BWALKER77]

In my expiereance monometal bullets leave something to be desired in the performance department. Especially at longer ranges and with mild cartridges. With that said I have read and seen enough anecdotal evidence to make me switch over to monometals. Not because of the issue of scavengers ingesting lead, but rather not wanting to feed lead laced game to my family or myself.

 

[PrairieHunter]

Great conversation that has certainly made me think about this more than I have in the past.

 

[High Desert]

I switched to all copper over 10 years ago. They have performed well. Having watched the waterfowling transition to steel, I suspect rifle hunters will follow the same path. As it becomes more widely used, production costs will drop somewhat and quality and options will increase. Having seen some of the data on lead fragments, I don't think you can be assured that your meat is always lead free. If you're feeding meat to others, why take the chance when there is a good alternative.

 

[3855WIN]

Here’s a reason.

https://www.fieldandstream.com/rifle-barrels-why-copper-fouling-kills-accuracy#page-2

 

[mtmiller]

I am missing your point.

 

[Bigjay73]

I am missing your point.

The copper on solids is different than it is on jacketed bullets and some say it can foul your barrel quicker. JBs is a good way to get rid of copper fouling

 

[Ben Lamb]

I'm switching to copper on most of my hunting rifles and am having good luck finding accuracy with E-tips, TTSX & TSX bullets. Have yet to find a sweet spot for the GMax hornady's though.

I'm in the same camp as Buzz. Even moving my 22-250 over to non-toxic.

I have a bunch of guns that I can't get bullets in copper for due to age, performance of the cartridge, etc, but most of those aren't going to be dumping a bunch of energy like high-pressure rounds and the lead slug will stay intact as it plows through everything.

 

[Carlin59]

Has anyone heard of non-lead getting much traction in the midwest/east/southern US? I've only used Hornady GMX in CO and WY for the past ~5 years and see no to reason to go back to lead. However, when I go back to WI to rifle hunt every fall, I don't think any of my friends there have ever considered switching to non-lead. The majority of guys have the same five year old half-empty box of Core Lokts or blue box federal in their truck, and don't give a lot of thought to bullet selection (much less switching to non-lead). It seems like most of the discussion regarding non-lead bullets has been around focused on the west in relation to raptors there, but I wonder if there is much discussion going on in the East since deer kills there are measured in the 100s of thousands annually?

 

[Irrelevant]

I chitchatted with Leland at there booth at the BHA rende. When I questioned him on the performance, especially at distance/lower velocity he walked me through a paper from Germany that looked that concluded that although the call copper doesn't expand as much at low speeds they typically retain either a flat or convex nose which still creates as large or larger wound channel do to the increase energy wave propagation as the larger diameter lead bullets since almost all lead bullets end up with at least a very slightly rounded nose.

I was holding back on switching because I couldn't get any to choose very well, thankfully I threw it out to the HT community on several people gave me there recipes, which are significant improvements over they groups I had gotten on my own.

 

[cfree]

AZGFD has been pushing the lead free ammo for a while on the north rim, supposedly in order to protect the endangered California condor. They even give a free box of lead free ammo to everyone that draws a tag in units 12 and 13. I've received free copper ammo for both my boys on their deer hunts and also on a recent bison hunt($100 for my .300 Weatherby---thank you very much!) Performance has been great on all animals taken. They include the following page in the regs about copper vs lead. Those little fragments, far from where the bullet entered and exited, are a little concerning to me. Can't see any reason not to use copper only.

 

[Tubb2402]

For me, I started shooting them when I drew an Arizona Strip mule deer tag. I didn't go cold turkey, having never done the research to confirm/debunk the many comments I had heard about the topics of lead v. non-lead. In 2013 I started shooting Nosler E-Tips and shot E-Tips for the entire 2014 season. Amazing results. Still shooting them in some rifles today.

Having talked to Chris in great depth and now having done my own research, I have ordered new CDS dials for all my Leupold scopes and I will be converting over exclusively to E-Tips by 2019. Regardless of what doubt might exist as to the benefits, the information I have found in my research is overwhelmingly stacked higher than the information casting doubt.

When I was setting up my Rifle last year I ended up going with the Nosler E-tips. Mainly because of the video series with Dakota at Nosler, plus I liked the idea of non-lead ammo and its benefit to wildlife. I have the same 308 Howa Alpine Mountain Rifle and you've mentioned you generally shoot Partitions out of it, as that gun likes them best. How much better did the Partitions shoot than the E-Tips? I assume it was minimal at most hunting distances (100-200yds), but noticeable at longer ranges.

 

[Big Fin]

How much better did the Partitions shoot than the E-Tips? I assume it was minimal at most hunting distances (100-200yds), but noticeable at longer ranges.

Negligible at all distances, such that I could not decipher if the differences in groups was the bullet changes or the nut behind the trigger. Some groups the E-Tips were slightly better, some groups the Partitions were slightly better. In my 7mm-.08 it is a tie between the E-Tips and AccuBonds. Getting some E-Tips to compare in my .270. The .300 Win loves the E-Tips the same as it does AccuBonds.

 

[Power54]

I've been shooting non-lead since 2005 and I'm not going back. The monolithics shoot perfectly well in all of my rifles and copper fouling is a non-issue since it's so easy to deal with. No lead, no worries.

 

[hank4elk]

I switched many years ago to copper.Used some Barnes Federal,until I ran out,& it was no longer available.
Then moved to Nosler Accubonds,which are almost same thing with the same excellent performance in my rifle....maybe better ammo overall from my old Fed ammo. I still use steel for everything except rabbits in my shotgun.

 

[grandejuan]

FWIW. Several years ago, I was at a breakfast function at the Wild Turkey convention in Nashville and sat next to a lady from the USFS. She read my state as being from Arizona and asked if I was familiar with the No. Kaibab. I've Turkey and deer hunted there for 35+ years. Turns out she was the head of the Endangered Species Dept. for the USFS in DC. I mean she was the top dog!!! Anyway, we started talking about the California Condor and non toxic ammo being used for deer and varmint hunting as well as turkey. I told her that I wished the condors well and understood that situation. I did ask her a question for which she had no answer. If lead fragments are toxic for the condors, why is it that the turkey vultures, that are closely related to condors, and the ravens don't seem to have any problems? They are not suffering any die offs or neurotoxicity that is apparent, and their numbers appear to be stable or growing. She replied very honestly that no studies had ever been done on them and the effects of consumed lead. I wish I remembered her name to ask her if the USFWS have since studied this. It's an interesting question. GJ