Law enforcement on wildlife refuges

Talked with a local land manager last night about this. He said this has been a gradual movement for a while but the abrupt ending came out of nowhere. In my neck of the woods their plan is to have one LEO to cover Bowdoin and Medicine Lake NWRs. Do more with less, and then pretend to be confused when the results are shitty.
 
Pumped! Always wanted to hose some ducks with lead, also I always thought bags limits were a little low. I bet I can drop 16 opening morning, should be a good season.

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Mixed feelings, on remote refuges this makes not too much sense. At the same time I have had run ins with some of these characters including one who jumped out of the bushes at 3 in the morning to count our shells and check our plugs while we were walking to a blind to set up. He was wearing a hat mocking ducks unlimited that said “ducks are limited that’s why we protect them”. His authoritarian complex made me believe he was possibly picked on as a child and the interaction I think most law enforcement would find embarrassing to their profession. This guy had no business enforcing the law or his interpretation of it. The notion that these guys will just sit back and let crimes occur is ridiculous, they are very cabable taking names and writing down lic plate numbers and calling law enforcement. The temper tantrum attitude of certain federal employees comes right out in this article. Little oversight for most of these folks. I grew up hunting fed and state refuges and I saw it all to often. But at the same time, if I am the guy managing bowdoin NWR, I am carrying..
 
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Quackillr said:
Mixed feelings, on remote refuges this makes not too much sense. At the same time I have had run ins with some of these characters including one who jumped out of the bushes at 3 in the morning to count our shells and check our plugs while we were walking to a blind to set up. He was wearing a hat mocking ducks unlimited that said “ducks are limited that’s why we protect them”. His authoritarian complex made me believe he was possibly picked on as a child and the interaction I think most law enforcement would find embarrassing to their profession. This guy had no business enforcing the law or his interpretation of it. The notion that these guys will just sit back and let crimes occur is ridiculous, they are very cabable taking names and writing down lic plate numbers and calling law enforcement. The temper tantrum attitude of certain federal employees comes right out in this article. Little oversight for most of these folks. I grew up hunting fed and state refuges and I saw it all to often. But at the same time, if I am the guy managing bowdoin NWR, I am carrying..
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I think most people have ran into some form of law enforcement that has anp authority complex and superior attitude, which isn't right. I understand your opinion, I just think the lack of law enforcement presence will be an issue. Here in Nevada our game wardens are stretched thin resulting in laws being broke. Less enforcement on refuges would result in state game wardens covering areas that would have already been covered.

My concern is that BLM and FS LEOs are next on the going block.
 
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Defunding enforcement on our public lands is just as much a problem as maintenance backlogs. In some places things are already at crisis levels.
 
Nv_archer said:
laws being broke. Less enforcement on refuges would result in state game wardens covering areas that would have already been covered.

My concern is that BLM and FS LEOs are next on the going block.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't there only 110 state personal in the entire warden department for the state of Montana? Not to mention Cascade county MT, which is bigger than Delaware and has a 12k acre refuge has only 88 Sheriff deputies. Doesn't sound like a recipe for success to me.
 
This isn’t exactly out of the blue. It’s been coming for quite a while, though a phased approach as more full time LEOs came on would have made a lot more sense.

A lot of folks in the agency have mixed feelings about it. The dual functions usually have a wildlife background and LE was just something that was part of getting that permanent job. But it still requires all the same time commitment of a full time LE for training and quals. It worked great back when most refuges had 10 or 15 staff or more. But now you’re lucky if you have 5 people at an average refuge, and many have fewer than that. The workload has become unsustainable and those dual functions simply don’t have time to both carry out all the operational duties to keep the refuge open and running, and devote any significant time to LE. At the same time, having no LE at all and relying on other LE agencies isn’t great either. Heck, we couldn’t even get the local warden to call us back unless we actually made a TipMont call. I think he was a special case, but still. Also went through a period where we had “credible threats” and were ordered to have go bags packed in case something happened (keep in mind that staff at remote refuges often are required to live on station too). It was kind of terrifying at the time but I sure felt better having an officer next door when the closest cop shop was 30 miles away.

The full time LEOs haven’t necessarily been a fix-all either though. They end up being pulled away for all kinds of things so don’t end up doing full time enforcement in their areas either. Right now they are all rotating through weeks-long details on the southern border for border security. Not sure what that says about where on the priority list refuge or wildlife enforcement lies.
 
I have found that there are few states that I have hunted where a law enforcement offices calls you back. When they do they are normally short and pissy in their statements.

I have personally turned in at least 3 poachers over the years. Never got a call back from any of the LEO. If they arnt going to do their jobs I say fire them and hire people who will.
 
Mallardsx2 said:
I have found that there are few states that I have hunted where a law enforcement offices calls you back. When they do they are normally short and pissy in their statements.

I have personally turned in at least 3 poachers over the years. Never got a call back from any of the LEO. If they arnt going to do their jobs I say fire them and hire people who will.
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If my reading comprehension skills are lacking, forgive me. But, you claim "NEVER got a call back from ANY LEO". While previously stating "When they do (call back) they are normally short and pissy". Not following your logic.

Also, am unsure of what your claim has to do with the OP.........

If all LEO's are that bad at their jobs, maybe them dumb jock NFL players have a point in their "disrespecting law enforcement" knee-taking...........:rolleyes:
 
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The reality is there are few if any staff on NWR's during the weekends, when the most people are utilizing the land. Much like USFS offices I believe they should be open on the weekends to not only help people but also deter crime that occurs due to nobody being around. No other recreation industry business would ever be closed on it's busiest days. If you choose a career that is based around public recreation being at work on Saturday/Sunday is just part of the deal.

I'd love to see more LEO presence on our public lands on weekends especially. The state does a much better job of keeping enough LEO for public land as I rarely see vandalism like I do on BLM/USFS land and just in the last two weeks I have encountered LEO's at Curt Gowdy State Park and Guernsey State Park. Curt Gowdy encounter was on a bike over a mile from a trailhead and certainly enough presence to deter the types of vandalism we see elsewhere as I can't say I have ever encountered many federal LEO's on federal property but have have seen all kinds of vandalism and garbage. The BLM property south of Laramie is a free trash dump, thankfully the NWR not far away is not like that, I think due to not allowing any hunting or fishing which also kinda defeats the purpose of such places. I could see NWR's going that way if people started dumping garbage and nobody did anything about it.

I have seen the waste at NWR's first hand, cutting LEO's is not the way to save money. LaCreek NWR for example has a good sized staff and millions of dollars in unnecessary equipment for managing what amounts to a small piece of seldom used property. They are closed on the weekends when the few bird watchers and hunters are around and the biggest issue is trouble from nearby reservations spilling over on the NWR during the weekends. If there are not LEO's it will just get worse. I'd much prefer to take $ from their maintenance budget or remove administrative staff than to cut LEO funds.
 
I keep the TIPS hotline number handy and 911 in case see obvious infractions or dangerous behavior approaching criminal negligence. My feedback is catching and conviction game violators is not rewarded in the ecosystem that is compensation and promotion at most F&G depts. Would you rather sit at your desk then go for a drive to check on your territory or investigate someone that might be violent? If are not rewarded for taking on the risk and is not closely tied to compensation and promotion then is easy to comprehend why I have also read dozens of threads here that end the same way....no follow-up to the attempt to turn in a poacher or ATV idiot riding beyond the gates tearing up sensitive hillsides.
 
PrairieHunter said:
The reality is there are few if any staff on NWR's during the weekends, when the most people are utilizing the land. Much like USFS offices I believe they should be open on the weekends to not only help people but also deter crime that occurs due to nobody being around. No other recreation industry business would ever be closed on it's busiest days. If you choose a career that is based around public recreation being at work on Saturday/Sunday is just part of the deal.
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I think you have a basic misunderstanding of the Fish and Wildlife Service. Refuges aren't in the recreation business. They're in the resource management business. The mission of nearly every Refuge, as enacted by Congress, is to "conserve, protect, and enhance" wildlife populations and their habitats and, if compatible with that mission, provide recreational opportunities. It is not a multiple use agency. Hard to get the business of resource management done outside of normal business hours when most of the people you deal with are energy companies, utility companies, private landowners and cooperators, universities, county and state officials, NGO's, etc. Most refuges used to keep some kind of weekend hours, but smaller government and all that - those positions and hours have been cut. What can you do? The voters have spoken.

That said, I don't know any full time LEO that doesn't work weekends during high visitation periods. But very few Refuge staff are LE. One person covering thousands to a million acres deters nothing, weekend or not.
 
This isn't new. Here in the east, National Wildlife Refuge Managers and Assistant Managers were relieved of their dual purpose roles as LE Officers over 15 years ago. The reason was training. In todays world, the danger LE Officers are exposed to every day has increased alarmingly. Training requirements for Dual Purpose officers was a fract
 
fraction of what is for full time officers. It becomes a safety issue. The decision increased my workload as a State Warden significantly when I took it upon myself to make the Refuge in my patrol area a priority. The north boundary of the Refuge is Canada. Not only is the area a hotspot for hunting, fishing and trapping, but also smuggling. The USF&W folks at the Refuge were great to work with. They gave me keys to everything and permission to use any and all equipment.
 
Hunting Wife said:
I think you have a basic misunderstanding of the Fish and Wildlife Service. Refuges aren't in the recreation business. They're in the resource management business. The mission of nearly every Refuge, as enacted by Congress, is to "conserve, protect, and enhance" wildlife populations and their habitats and, if compatible with that mission, provide recreational opportunities. It is not a multiple use agency. Hard to get the business of resource management done outside of normal business hours when most of the people you deal with are energy companies, utility companies, private landowners and cooperators, universities, county and state officials, NGO's, etc. Most refuges used to keep some kind of weekend hours, but smaller government and all that - those positions and hours have been cut. What can you do? The voters have spoken.

That said, I don't know any full time LEO that doesn't work weekends during high visitation periods. But very few Refuge staff are LE. One person covering thousands to a million acres deters nothing, weekend or not.
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I am very familiar with NWR's and have worked on several of them. I have done major project at Valentine NWR, LACreek NWR, and Crescent Lake NWR for example. The majority of people who use the refuges are there on the weekends which is when LEO is needed most and also when most staff are off, that's an issue. Even having office staff present on weekends can help deter would be criminals. I have seen the waste from these facilities first hand, its' not a funding issue. Most NWR offices are empty on the weekends. I also have seen how overstaffed and over equipped these places are for what they accomplish. LAcreek NWR has a fleet of equipment that would make a country road crew jealous and yet they hire out most work and really only maintain a few gravel roads with all they have, most of which just sits unused every day.

But this is common among government offices. The USFS offices have the same issue as all the people are there on the weekends, but the buildings are all closed and everyone is off. Not enough LEO, too many administrative staff.

And yes one person can help deter crime even in a large area. No idea how you came to another conclusion but every person helps and even just having an office on duty to respond to calls on weekends is huge.
 
Hunting Wife said:
I think you have a basic misunderstanding of the Fish and Wildlife Service. Refuges aren't in the recreation business. They're in the resource management business. The mission of nearly every Refuge, as enacted by Congress, is to "conserve, protect, and enhance" wildlife populations and their habitats and, if compatible with that mission, provide recreational opportunities. It is not a multiple use agency. Hard to get the business of resource management done outside of normal business hours when most of the people you deal with are energy companies, utility companies, private landowners and cooperators, universities, county and state officials, NGO's, etc. Most refuges used to keep some kind of weekend hours, but smaller government and all that - those positions and hours have been cut. What can you do? The voters have spoken.

That said, I don't know any full time LEO that doesn't work weekends during high visitation periods. But very few Refuge staff are LE. One person covering thousands to a million acres deters nothing, weekend or not.
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Spot on, great post.

There is certainly a major lack in understanding on a lot of these issues. People act as though administrative staff is unnecessary....really? Show me any business with a few hundred to a few thousand employees that don't have HR, accountants, and other administration staff. They don't exist anywhere but fantasyland.

Also, expecting one or two LEO's to cover areas the size of even a refuge is a joke...a district on a national forest, a bigger joke, and in some cases there is only one "zoned" LEO covering 2 or more districts. One person, is one person and cant be on every acre, every day, on something with tens, if not hundreds of thousands of acres. Violators are very hard to catch, just look at the amount of poaching that goes on...and GF LEO divisions have a large amount of staffing compared to the Land Management agencies.

As to working weekends, I can tell you first hand that FS/BLM handbook regulations and collective bargaining agreements prohibit working weekends for a lot of employees.

Its not just as simple as trying to force employees to work weekends, like it or not, employees have rights.

I'm in a pretty unique position and work a maxi-flex work schedule that allows me a lot of latitude in when I work, both hours and days of the week. As such, I typically work every other weekend...but I had to request, again by regulation, to be put on that schedule. I cant be forced to be on it. Standard work schedules for Federal employees is M-F 8 hours a day, and nearly all are hired under the SWS.

Another thing to note, that just blew me away, is that in the case of Wyoming, Game Wardens and Biologists have limited yearly mileages they can put on their vehicles. When I heard that, my jaw about hit the floor. Pretty tough to chase down every "tip" when your vehicle mileage is capped.

As to equipment sitting around, well, much of it was purchased when budgets and staffing were better. You can have all the equipment paid for, but if you don't have a budget to hire people to run it...Houston, we have a problem.

Nothing is as simple as many make it sound and IMO, and in general, all agencies have way too few LEO's and more funding is needed. I would suggest rather than trying to force employees to work weekends, and whining about equipment sitting around, I would be asking my Legislators when they intend to properly fund the various Land Management Agencies and hire people to do the work.

Finally, I agree 100% with Mallardsx2, when citizens turn people in for violations, its imperative that the LEO follow up with them. Those willing to speak up need validation that it was worth their time...whether or not a citation or case was made.
 
BuzzH said:
Spot on, great post.

There is certainly a major lack in understanding on a lot of these issues. People act as though administrative staff is unnecessary....really? Show me any business with a few hundred to a few thousand employees that don't have HR, accountants, and other administration staff. They don't exist anywhere but fantasyland.

Also, expecting one or two LEO's to cover areas the size of even a refuge is a joke...a district on a national forest, a bigger joke, and in some cases there is only one "zoned" LEO covering 2 or more districts. One person, is one person and cant be on every acre, every day, on something with tens, if not hundreds of thousands of acres. Violators are very hard to catch, just look at the amount of poaching that goes on...and GF LEO divisions have a large amount of staffing compared to the Land Management agencies.

As to working weekends, I can tell you first hand that FS/BLM handbook regulations and collective bargaining agreements prohibit working weekends for a lot of employees.

Its not just as simple as trying to force employees to work weekends, like it or not, employees have rights.

I'm in a pretty unique position and work a maxi-flex work schedule that allows me a lot of latitude in when I work, both hours and days of the week. As such, I typically work every other weekend...but I had to request, again by regulation, to be put on that schedule. I cant be forced to be on it. Standard work schedules for Federal employees is M-F 8 hours a day, and nearly all are hired under the SWS.

Another thing to note, that just blew me away, is that in the case of Wyoming, Game Wardens and Biologists have limited yearly mileages they can put on their vehicles. When I heard that, my jaw about hit the floor. Pretty tough to chase down every "tip" when your vehicle mileage is capped.

As to equipment sitting around, well, much of it was purchased when budgets and staffing were better. You can have all the equipment paid for, but if you don't have a budget to hire people to run it...Houston, we have a problem.

Nothing is as simple as many make it sound and IMO, and in general, all agencies have way too few LEO's and more funding is needed. I would suggest rather than trying to force employees to work weekends, and whining about equipment sitting around, I would be asking my Legislators when they intend to properly fund the various Land Management Agencies and hire people to do the work.

Finally, I agree 100% with Mallardsx2, when citizens turn people in for violations, its imperative that the LEO follow up with them. Those willing to speak up need validation that it was worth their time...whether or not a citation or case was made.
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Just because people have a different opinion does not mean there is a lack of understanding. As a government employee your perspective is going to be different than someone like myself who owns their own business as we come from opposite ends of the spectrum. You rely on the government for your well being, so it's not surprising that you have a biased opinion on the matter. I do not require the government to provide my income so I see things much differently.

Asking a government employee about efficiency/waste at their office is like asking a coal mine employee about global warming, you know the answer before they open their mouth.

As far as waste at government offices it's rampant from NWR's, USFS, to USDA offices. You obviously don't like talking about that but that does not mean it's any less true.

As a person who worked in government contracting I can tell you how often contractors take advantage of government agencies when they waste money. Worst I ever saw was up in Hot Springs, we did a nearly million dollar lining job on a 48" pipe that had never had water run through it. COE is just as bad as NWR's and USFS it seems. Please spare me the stories about needing more funding as I know better and have watched contractors take advantage of government morons for millions in places where the agencies whine about lack of funding.

We agree that more LEO are needed so we have that going for us.
 
Asking a government employee about efficiency/waste at their office is like asking a coal mine employee about global warming, you know the answer before they open their mouth.
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This ranks as one of the dumbest and most ignorant generalizations I’ve seen.
 
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