%#&@ing Wolves

[FLIPPER]

WW likes the dying quiver....

Ok after readin all the debate, snot flyin, whining, cryin, here is my small story from the east.

We have a small mountain range here called the Appalachian Mountains. In this lies the Great Smokey Mountains National Park, in this lies a area called Cades Cove. In Cades Cove there is a 11 mile loop, black topped even, that you can drive, walk or ride bicycles and enjoy watching wildlife, which includes:whitetail deer, black bear, coyotes and various birds and small animals. Now they have reintroduced the Red Wolf into this area, I think it has been 3 yrs now.

It is illegal to hunt in Cades Cove.It has not been hunted since the 1800's. The deer population, just like everywhere else, has exploded. In years past our wildlife division would trap the deer and relocate them to other areas of the state where populations were lower.

So now we have the Red Wolf to control the deer population. So far I hear they are doing well and mutilpying like rabbits. Also they are not staying in Cades Cove, 3 of them, radio tracking collars, have been located 75 miles from there and 2 found dead.

It would have been cheaper, less controversy, if they would have held special hunts in this area to control the deer population. They could have even made money from it by setting it up on a lottery draw system. But they chose the Red Wolf route and now we all must live with that decision.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 03-31-2002 08:33: Message edited by: FLIPPER ]</font>

 

[Muledeer4me]

Flipper,just goes to show you how the thinking of some people goes.
We make more parks,we tell people when ,were & how to watch wildlife,we limit hunting,bring back the predators to control game,WOW next step,close down more areas to humans,make the park & monument systems bigger,go after guns,---------because after all why would you all need guns when we have nice neet parks and no need to hunt because the greenies have it all figured out for you.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Just to clarify who is responsible for wolf reintroduction, here's some info on the ESA:
"A 1973 conference in Washington led to the signing of the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES), which restricted international commerce in plant and animal species believed to be actually or potentially harmed by trade.

Later that year, the Endangered Species Act (ESA) of 1973 was passed, which combined and considerably strengthened the provisions of its predecessors, and broke some new ground."

Guess which administration was responsible for putting this Act through Congress and signing it into law. Not exactly a bunch of bunny hugging environmentalists.

http://environment.about.com/library/weekly/bles10.htm

By the way, advocating poaching and/or deliberately wounding animals so they run off and die later is really irresponsible. If you want to kill something at least do it humanely, and be ready to take responsibility for your actions.

I think it's interesting that MD4m, who is always talking about getting along with each other and working together is the biggest name caller on Hunt Talk and expresses so much hate so often for people she disagrees with.
"because the greenies have it all figured out ..." etc.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 03-31-2002 12:37: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[The Hedgehog]

Ithaca.... Jimmy crack corn and ...

Perhaps you can give us HSUS's stance on the topic. Are you a Charter HSUS member? You know the only thing HSUS is good for don't ya?? That would be providing free training kittens to the houndsman!

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 03-31-2002 12:42: Message edited by: Greenhorn ]</font>

 

[Ithaca 37]

Greenhorn, No, but I believe in legal, humane, one shot kills.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 03-31-2002 12:42: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[1_pointer]

Flipper, I've been there and am very glad that I was able to see two red wolves while there. My opinions are forming and I believe that we can have predators and hunting. Hunting limits the predators, and when there gets to be too many of them they too can be hunted. I don't think we should manage lands with an anthropocentric bias, but that we should manage for us to be apart of the system.

The can of worms with the red wolf is should it be protected? Now that is one for debate.

 

[Buckshot]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 1_pointer:
I don't think we should manage lands with an anthropocentric bias<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't that kinda an oxymoron? Seems like humans managing lands is anthropocentric in itself....

Sorry, I just wanted to use oxymoron and anthropocentric in the same paragraph.

 

[Elkhunter]

"Early settlers moving westward severely depleted most populations of bison, deer, elk and moose -- animals that were important prey for wolves. With little alternative, wolves turned to sheep and cattle that had replaced their natural prey. To protect livestock, ranchers and government agencies began a campaign to eliminate wolves. Bounty programs initiated in the 19th century continued as late as 1965, offering $20 to $50 per wolf. Wolves were trapped, shot from planes and snowmobiles, dug from their dens, and hunted with dogs. Animal carcasses salted with strychnine were left out for wolves to eat. Unfortunately this practice also indiscriminately killed eagles, ravens, foxes, bears and other animals which fed on the poisoned carrion."

"The Yellowstone and Idaho wolves are designated as non-essential, experimental under the Endangered Species Act. This designation allows federal, state and tribal agencies and private citizens more flexibility in managing these populations. Wolves that prey on livestock will be removed and, if necessary, destroyed. Ranchers may kill wolves they catch in the act of preying on their livestock on private lands. They may be issued a permit to do the same on public lands after certain conditions are met."


"Wolf recovery efforts represent an opportunity to redress past mistakes and enhance our understanding not only of wolves themselves, but also the complex interactions among species in their natural environments."


Given time, I think they will be delisted and managed as a game animal. But to just shoot them for the sake of shooting them and seeing them suffer takes a warped mind. I would not think you would do that to a deer or an elk, so why would anyone do that to another animal. I think a lot of what has been said was said in jest and to get people riled up. At least I hope that's all it is.

 

[Muledeer4me]

Oh im pretty sure we dont have any big bad gut shooters posting on here.
Come on lighten up some.
The part that gets me is how we want to make the people that came before us out to be so bad.
Do you really think any of us could of done it better with the knolage and resources of the day?
It so easy to place the blame now.
Sure it different now,and they tell you these predadors will be shot when getting into trouble ,but try telling the livestock owner how easy it is to shoot any predators that are in his pasture chasing his livestock.
Ithaca,if you dont like my post dont read them ,im sure not trying to win any praise from you.
The only difference between us is that I come out and say how I feel while you do the same thing -only you try to hide it under snide comments & more cut & paste liberal chatter.

 

[ELKCHSR]

As MD4M has stated and I will add to a bit. Our ansestores looked apon what they did as a needed essenial at the time. It was the norm and no other thought I belive was put up. I suppose there will be things that we are doing now that peoples in the future will look on as ignorant. Things we take for granted as right and would think of nothing else. So before peoples are bashed for what was the normal way of thinking. Look at what is the norm. We don't put human heads on pike poles and hang them from our living spaces any more to prove a point. Or nail them to a cross to die a slow death. Things and ideals change......

 

[sdgunslinger]

"Early settlers moving westward severely depleted most populations of bison, deer, elk and moose -- animals that were important prey for wolves. With little alternative, wolves turned to sheep and cattle that had replaced their natural prey. To protect livestock, ranchers and government agencies began a campaign to eliminate wolves. Bounty programs initiated in the 19th century continued as late as 1965, offering $20 to $50 per wolf. Wolves were trapped, shot from planes and snowmobiles, dug from their dens, and hunted with dogs. Animal carcasses salted with strychnine were left out for wolves to eat.

Keeping in mind that it took all out war like that in the past to eliminate the wolfies , how many of you still think that sporting style hunting with quotas will do anything to control a wolf population ?

 

[Muledeer4me]

But sdgunslinger,isnt that the plan ?
We already know how the anit-crowd feels about hunting, this stuff is just another way for the lock it-up crowd to get there agenda pushed through.
They have tried the spotted owl,sucker fish,the snail,logging,ranching,minning,hunting ,fishing,atvs,some even think the horse is bad LOL
Pretty soon there wont be a need for us humans to own much of anything but a pair of hiking boot (or birkenstocks)
and Bino's.
But hey we can all hop on the snow coach or bus and take a public lands tour.Much better then going it on your own ,dont ya know LOL
I am just praying they havent helped the fuel efficiency so much that we will touring around in something akin to a ( yugo or VW bus.)

 

[Elkhunter]

I don't think it is a matter of placing the blame on people of the past as much as it is explaining what happened many years ago. Is it different now that so many are easy to blame the New Yorkers, easterners and Californians for the reintroduction and for how bad it is and how bad it is going to be. I think a lot of people are being blamed for what is going to happen before it even happens. Seems there are a lot of Crystal Balls out here and everyone knows the answer except for the biologists and the people doing the studies. I am not saying they are right, but I do believe they are a little more educated on the matter than the average Joe Blow hunter that just wants them rid of, gut shot and exterminated once again. The reason for an all out war so many years ago I would think was due to having so many then and so much less game animals for them. If properly controlled prior to a wolf explotion I do not see where an all out war on them would be needed. The land also belongs to all wildlife and not just the game you wish to have on it.

 

[lilbiggun]

We just had a couple of guides get busted for poisoning a moose carcass to kill off wolves. I hope they throw the book at them, they did break the law.
As for listening to biologists, I agree. its a damn shame politics get involved. Right now the state wants to amend our constitution to make the natives happy instead of listening to the folks who know (biologists). Thank goodness tomorrow is voting day here in town. Why dont they make a remarks colomn on the ballot ?

 

[The Hedgehog]

Elkhunter you are an animal rights activist in disguise. Where did you move to Wyoming from?

 

[ELKCHSR]

Greenhorn!!
I saw no mention of animal rightsin Elkhunters post. Nor have I ever seen it in any of his posts. Theres a balance that will have to be met with the wolf intro. I don't like it any better than you. But the cat's out of the bag. All we can hope for is that the poletitions will let the bio's do their jobs and have free reign on proper management. The state had meetings last month to help with this dictation. Did you go? There will, I'm sure be more. It's on the fwp home page.....

 

[Elkhunter]

Greenhorn if you wish to think of me as an animal rights activists so be it. But instead of trying to insult everyone that does not believe and think as you do, why don't you put your words of wisdom to good use and try to persuade the entire animal rights activists world why the wolf is wrong. I would much rather see you explain to me and anyone else why it is wrong to have wildlife in the wild and why it is right to just gut shoot them for fun. Where I am from doesn't matter as it doesn't matter where anyone is from. We all have an opinion and I for one am willing to change my opinion if someone has given enough information to change it. I can see that you are not willing to do that, but instead all you try to do is throw insults.
By the way, I don't think quitting a good paying job, picking up my roots and moving to Wyoming for the hunting and outdoor recreation makes me an animal rights activist.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Ha! So I see I was correct in my guess that you were a move-in, which seems to be a hot-button for you.

ELKCHSR, speaking of "poleticians"... Have you ever thought of running? You seem to be a great thinker and have significant leadership qualities that our government could use.

 

[Silent But Deadly]

My first guess - he is from Greenbow Alabama, has a girlfriend named Jenny, and made his fortune in the shrimping industry. My second guess would be New York.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Although I think he's misinformed about some things I think this person's guest opinion in my local daily paper is fairly typical of how some people feel about wolves. Like it or not, this is what you're up against if you don't want wolves in your state.

"Man has spent centuries encroaching on predators"


http://204.228.236.37/Opinion/ReadersOpinions/story.asp?ID=6587