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%#&@ing Wolves

Silent But Deadly

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Here is a cut & paste job for you.
I think this guy’s prediction of the elk in the tri-state area is a little pessimistic, but think of what will happen to the Yellowstone heard. Probably won’t make any difference if you are a predator loving panzy living in Pennsylvania.

The End of Life in Montana as We Know It?

by

Gary Marbut

Are wolves likely to wipe out the wildlife resource in Montana? Let's look
at some of the evidence the local biologists and the anti-hunters don't
want to discuss.

Some of the most bedrock scientific research on wolves has been done by
Warren Ballard, now a professor of wildlife biology in Texas, when he was a
wolf biologist for the Alaska Department of Fish and Game.

Ballard's studies report an average growth rate of wolf populations of 1.34
per year, notwithstanding human hunting and trapping, and even given the
mortalities associated with wolf-wolf rivalry, wolf-bear rivalry, and
capture deaths from biological studies. The highest annual wolf population
increase Ballard documented was 2.40 per year. Assuming the lower
population growth rate of 1.34, the wolf population will double every 2.5
years, and increase 10-fold every 8 years.

Lower (government) estimates of the number of wolves in Montana, Idaho and
Wyoming is at about 570. Other credible estimates place the numbers at
1,200 or above. Assuming the lower estimates, by 2010, if not vigorously
controlled there will be 5,700 wolves in the tri-state area.

Estimates vary about how many elk these wolves will kill each year. Most
studies have been done where wolves preyed primarily upon moose and caribou
(Alaska) or moose and deer (Minnesota). In these studies, wolves seemed to
rely only about 20% on caribou or deer for feed, and killed mostly moose.
It's probably safe to assume that Montana wolves will prey primarily on elk
- probably about 80%.

Opinions differ, but it is likely that wolves will kill (not consume -
kill) about 50 elk per year, per wolf. Some believe this number may be as
high as 100, or more. This includes documented phenomenon such as surplus
killing, sport killing, neonate killing (elk calves; easy catch - less meat
per kill), and educational killing (training pups to kill).

Using conservative (low) numbers, if the 5,700 wolves in 2010 each kill 50
elk that year, they will take 285,000 elk. Including all the years between
now and then, the number of elk lost to wolves will be over one million
(1,000,000) elk!!

The Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks reports that there are
now about (they think) 90,000 elk living in Montana.

So, if wolves continue to expand in population without drastic controls, we
are facing the end of hunting within a few years, probably an end of any
animal husbandry, an end to country living with a couple of horses, dogs or
llamas, and a serious diminution of outdoor recreation because of wolf
danger in the woods.

Without drastic wolf control methods, by 2010 all elk, moose, deer, sheep
and goats will be gone, smaller animals such as ground-nesting birds,
rabbits, gophers and anything else edible will be wiped out, ranchers will
be bankrupt, horseback riders will not be safe with their horses outside of
highly-guarded enclaves, hiking will be very dangerous, and living in
Montana will be very, very different.

If one assumes upper limits on these variables, this scenario will run its
course by 2005, yet the newly-proposed Montana Wolf Management Plan
wouldn't even begin wolf management until 2005.

Welcome to living with wolves in Montana.

Gary Marbut, president
Montana Shooting Sports Association
P.O. Box 4924
Missoula, Montana 59806
 

1_pointer

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That's only given that the wolves occupy all the same habitat as the elk. Just because there is food there doesn't mean the wolves will live there. However, I do think the need for control would be needed and could offer a great opportunity for sportsmen.

Why didn't the wolves wipe out the elk before man came? Maybe moose and caribou are easier for them to kill, thus allowing them the high population growth.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 03-27-2002 10:55: Message edited by: 1_pointer ]</font>
 

Silent But Deadly

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Good point. Why didn't they whipe out the elk before we wiped them out. I don't think they are going to wipe out all the elk like this guy trys to lead on. However, in Yellowstone, I have a bad feeling of what they might do. I really doubt the wolf population in Yellowstone will ever be controlled. The wolves really don't seem to do much with the bison like I wish they would. There isn't any caribou in the park. Elk are their main source of food, and there is nothing to keep wolf numbers in check. Right now, there are prime elk hunting spots around Yellowstone. The late migration hunts have always been great for the lucky ones that draw a bull tag, and fairly easy for the meat hunters who almost regularly draw a cow tag. I can't predict what is going to happen, but I have a feeling that migration hunt will go the way of the Dodo bird. I worry the wolves will at least thin the elk surrounding the Park area to make a noticeable difference, or worse. Right now, you can rifle hunt these elk with a general tag in the Ranges north, and west of Yellowstone where these wolves could have a devastating effect. Hopefully I will be a grumpy old crippled one eyed bastard before that happens.
But at least the Yuppies on the East coat might get the chance to see a beatiful, gracefull wolf in the wild. To me they look like a Malamute or a giant coyote.
 

Greenhorn

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Some folks call it SSS for shoot, shovel, and shut up.

I don't think there's much wrong with a few wolves, but we need to be able to manage them. Until there's some satisfactory managment in place, I don't have a whole lot of heartburn with the old gut shoot'm and let the bird have em policy myself. GSAKYMS... Gut shoot and keep your mouth shut. .. and new acronym.

Besides, a wolf ain't worth the effort of digging a hole in the ground.

The whole attitude problem with this is because a bunch of pinhead environmentalists shoved it all down our throats. Won't make me uncomfortable in the least taking a well-placed gut shot. Unfortunately a chance a couple weeks ago was ruined becuase of the opinions of some company I was with. :( Would never do it in front of anyone... but turn me loose on my own. Yippee... nothing more than an overgrown coyote. There are plenty of wolves in the midwest and up North.
 

Silent But Deadly

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Personally, I prefer the a$$ shot.
ASAKYMS... A$$ shoot and keep your mouth shut. If the angle is right, you can make an a$$/gut shot combo. This is even better. Does this mean I am a redneck?
 

Casey Richardson

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People say this "wolves are a natural part of the circle of life" vomitt and it makes me sick. Sorry, sick and tired of seeing a resource (deer, elk, moose) destroyed because some putz went to 8 years of college back east and decided wolves should roam wild and free in my back yard. Well, ya know. blue tongue is natural among deer, cronic wasting disease is just part of the eco-system and is everybit as natural as wolves, so I say lets not reseach how to cure these dieseases, let them run rampant, or maybe we should control them and only let it effect a small part of the population? Sounds stupid, it is! Wolves are cronic wasting disease with fur and they are soooooo cute and a few people are being snow jobbed into thinking they are something neat. Sorry, just got a belly full. Wolves would never kill all the elk or deer, but they will take what they can and leave next to nothing. Happy hunting, Casey :mad: :mad: :(
 

BuzzH

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Once we kill all the wolves, I then suggest we move on to the mountain lions. Talk about a piece of crap killing machine, they make wolves look sick. I hope MT gets their stuff together and allows year round lion seasons, opens them up to trapping, and no limits or tags required. Those lions kill a pile of elk, deer, sheep, and goats in MT, they have to go.

I also suggest all us hunters do our part and gut shoot them too, in particular the females and kittens. It would also be great if lion populations were a lot lower, then I wouldnt have to listen to houndsmen piss and moan at every fish and game meeting for hours on end.
 

Elkhunter

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Did it ever occure to any of you that once man took away what Mother Nature gave us in the manner of check and balances with preditors and prey things got all screwy? Yeah I know, we the hunters replaced the wolf and the griz. Bull Pucky! Before wolves were reintroduced did you place hot topics like this anywhere or speak your mind and tell Canada or Alaska how bad they are? I would be willing to bet that the answer is no. But now it is in your back yard and all of a sudden it is wrong. They are killing your precious elk and deer and now you have to work harder and you have to actually hunt for your game. The game has gotten smarter and on top of that you have compition with the wolf and you don't like it. I am not a wolf lover, but I am a person who thinks that the wolf, the bear, the deer and the elk all have a place within the ecology and we as the civilized, smarter, humane and most intelligent creature on this earth need to realize that. Some of the same people who were against the reintroduction of the wolf are the same ones who were at the National Elk Refuge in the winter of 98/99 taking pictures everyday when they were down here. It seems to me that it is OK as long as it doesn't affect your hunting area or YOUR ELK & DEER. If they were so opposed to them, why were they enjoying seeing them everyday. And yes these were hunters and ranches both.
If the wolf was not erradicated would there be an epidemic of CWD? Preditors take the easiest prey they can get. For every article about how bad the wolf is there is an article to say just the opposite. The wolf was reintroduced and was placed with a smorgaboard of elk and deer at it's disposal. It did not have to kill the sick and the old as there were so many for it to feast upon.
If someone shot an elk, deer, moose, sheep or any other game species illeagaly you call it poaching and would turn that person in given the chance. Yet you sit here and preach that it is right to kill the wolf illeagally but do it and not open your mouth. Is this what you want the world to know you as a hunter are? Is it only wrong when it is someone else?
 

Greenhorn

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Buzz.. actually there are quotas on cats aleady and I don't believe they are too out of control, though some longer seasons and larger quotas are due in quite a few places.

Difference is cats are managed by the FWP wildlife biologists and hunters here... maybe not perfectly, but they are managed.

Wolves on the other hand are not managed, but shoved down our throats by a bunch of bunny-hugging environmentalists.

When they are delisted and controlled in a more resonalble manner, you'll see an attitude change. Until then.. I'll be happily gut-shooting the fuggers given the right opportunity.

...just like I do coyotes.
 

Greenhorn

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Buzz... question for you.. Do you think wolves AND grizzlies are in a position to be delisted? Would you support it? Do you think there is not enough of them around right now and we need to keep a hands off practice until there are a lot more of them? Any idea how many grizzlies are in MT? What methods to they use to count them? How accurate is the DNA population estimating? Any potential errors in that method?

Could there be more grizzlies than folks think in some areas? What about wolves?
 

BigHornyRam

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The Feds wacked 6 wolves here in Montana this past week, with more to come. 4 were killed for killing only one calf near Emigrant. What, no more second and third chances, or shock therapy at Ted T ranch? Sounds to me like the feds have finally decided start managing the problem they created. As long as the USFG keep wacking them, maybe we ought to let them continue to take the heat and pick up the tab. Any thoughts? Paul
 

Muledeer4me

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I have some unpopular thoughts.
Its not so much that they are here,its how they are being managed.
Its the thought that some tree hugger sitting in another state thinks we should have them dumped on us.
Its the anti-hunter that see's no reason for us to hunt because we will have the wolves,bears & cats to do the job they for us.
It's the hard time we are having getting them delisted,all the bull from the people that see them as cute & just doing there job.
If there is only so much huntable game to go around,well sorry ,but I feel no shame in being the one that wants to be the one to do the hunting.
While we fight over having them here, there is a whole other group fighting to stop hunting,I see the reintroduction of these predators as just another front in stopping hunting.
In all the talk I have done with other hunters,I really havent come across many that have a positive attuide about them.
They all say the same thing ,now that they are here ,lets get to the managment & hunting of them.
With all the crap being spread from the anit crowd about trying to stop hound hunting,cat hunting ,spring bear hunting,I would think those that love to hunt would be a bit more carefull about bring in more animals for that group to save.
 

JimmyD

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Last time I looked I paid taxes and some of those go to managing the National Forests, so as long as I'm picking up the tab (whether it's partial or not doesn't matter) I think it's bull$hit for people to go and shoot wolves just because they don't like them.

The reason that they're no longer around is because folks years ago did just what your doing. The reason there's not a season yet is pretty simple in my mind. There's not enough running around to initiate a season for them. When you look at the macro view of what's going on, problems in one area don't deteriate the overall successes seen across the whole Rockies. At that point its up to the Game and Fish to do whats right, not some weekend warrior with a gun.
 

Greenhorn

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I see we have another smart one from Texas..

JimmyD... what does managing national forsests have to do with anything?

Who's shooting wolves "just because they don't like them"?

You say "The reason there's not a season yet is pretty simple in my mind. Me laughing here.There's not enough running around to initiate a season for them."

Is that so? How many wolves are there JimmyD? Tell me. And how many should there be before they are controlled by the same people that control other wildlife in the states that have them?

It's up for the "game and fish to do what's right" you say. Man... get out of your shell. The game and fish isn't doing anything with wolves right now. JimmyD... who manages the wolves?

Glad things are so simple in your mind JimmyD.
 

Silent But Deadly

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I guess if I looked at it from a different perspective, I would think "Cool, maybe someday I could go to Yellowstone and see a wolf, If the elk hunting in the entire Greater Yellowstone area turns to crap, I'll just pick a different place to go. I don't think any problems will happen because these things have the tendancy to work themselves out." But, I live here, I am a selfish bastard, and I want to be able to have prime elk hunting in my back yard. I pay taxes too. When this internet porn thing pays off and I make my first million, I am going to start a group "The greater Eastern States Coalition" and our primary focus will be the re-introduction of the T-rex, saber tooth lion, and Wooly Mammoth which once roamed these great states as well as Texas. I watched Jarassic Park, I know how to grow those critters now.
Until then, I will just have to settle for the occasional satisfying "whap" as my bullet hits the hind end of one of your overgrown pet coyotes your taxes payed for.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 03-28-2002 10:05: Message edited by: Weekend Warrior ]</font>
 

1_pointer

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You have every right to complain about having this issue shoved down your throat, just as you complained last night!!! :D On Federal Lands everyone has a say, that is true. It sucks for some, but for the most part, in this country majority rules. I can understand that you'd be pi$$ed, but I still can't condone the illegal shooting of animals. I'm hoping all this talk is in jest.

Yes, I do kinda take the view that WW stated as I've yet to ever see a wolf. Maybe I'll come pay your area a visit this summer and check some out. Plus, it's been awhile since I've done some Hoggin'!!! ;)
 

BigHornyRam

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All you fans of the wolf and the wolf reintroduction, should put your money where your mouth is. Montana FWP in conjunction with Montana State University and others, are conducting a study to determine what effect the wolves are having on our game population. FWP is spending $250,000 of sportsman dollars to do this study. They still need more to complete this study, so maybe some of you would like to contribute to this cause. You know, help out with cost to manage these animals you like to see living in OUR states. Will you guys buy non resident elk tags in Montana when there are few elk left? I've ask this question on many web sites, and so far no pro wolfers have wanted to contribute. Maybe this group is differnt?

Paul
 

1_pointer

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More than likely I am supporting this study is some way. Funds for most the studies I know of at Utah State are federally funded, therefore I am helping pick up the tab. Maybe YOU should be paying more of the tab. If I remember right from another post in the Sportsmen's Issues board that 75% of MT license fees come from non-resident hunters. Plus, this study could generate the results that, to use a term similar to yours, 'anti-wolfers' need to push for stricter management. I for one am for the wolves, but not without sensible management. Humans have messed up all the ecosystems in America that we HAVE to manage them and a re-introduced species even much more so.
 

BigHornyRam

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1 pointer,

What are you, a college boy at Utard State or a pointy headed proffessor? When are you smart people going to get some common sense. Do some research and find out what is really happening with this wolf reintroduction. Hopefully you and the rest of the hunters out there who support the wolf reintroduction (with their mouths if not their wallet) figure it out before it is too late. I'm not holding my breath.

Paul
 

BuzzH

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Greenhorn, I agree with most everything you said, lions are being managed. However, I think its just a bit hypocrytical to be frothing at the mouth pissed off about wolves and then think lions are somehow great for the big-game in MT. It doesnt add up. People who say we should gut shoot wolves then show up at fish and game meetings in MT bitching about lowering cat quotas, bitching about having cat season open during rifle season, etc. etc.??? These people amaze me.

Do I think there are enough griz and wolves to delist, absolutely, should they be? absolutely. Should they be hunted/controlled hell yes.

Question for you, do you think that wolves and griz could be controlled under quota systems the same as lions?
 

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