Howling coyotes

[Rich Cronk]

brad h,
I think that you will do well with your calling. I wouldn't venture down into what I believe to be their "core" area either. I would rather howl them out of it than spook em out. LOL You are also wise not to read too much in to things. Scientific studies are good to read because it gives you something to think about. I don't know of any coyote that has read these studies anyway.

Have you ever felt the desire to return to your old home place? The place you were raised as a child and you have fond memories there? Yep, and the young coyotes like to hang around close to their den site for same reasons. They don't "live" in the den anymore, but seem to find comfort there. Sure they leave during night to go hunting with momma , and meet at some special high spot to sing their hearts out. Much of the time, they will sing a group howl from somewhere real close to old den site just before leaving for that hunt with momma.

 

[Crow Woman]

Rich C... I really enjoyed reading how you explain the old home theory and how coyotes never read the studies either

Although the coyotes don't register here at Moosie's, I sure am glad I have

Very Fascinated... Please Continue on!

 

[quail hunter]

Wow , you people get pretty deep into scenarios, do you think that maybe you can do so much figuring on how a coyote thinks that you could actually hurt your chances?
What ever happened to just getting up fore sunup and get to some country and just start calling?

I mean nowadays, science is pretty much found an answer for everything and it kinda takes the fun outta the mystery!
Would it be fun to know a certain dog walks and pees on this same spot everyday so you just wait and tippem over?
Heck no,keep it a mystery ,so much funner, just my opinion.

 

[Rich Cronk]

Quail hunter,
A heck of a lot of coyotes have been called and killed by using exact method in which you describe. A good hunter can still kill a fair number of coyotes with nothing but a rabbit call and a rifle or shotgun. Here in the midwest and points east of here, the coyotes are becoming more wary every year. I like to think of it as "call shy" but it probably isn't exactly correct term for it. Even those places in north texas where I used to go every year were showing strong signs of smart coyotes. Coyotes learn real quick once he has been shot at, or even was spooked by human odor when he came in to the call and didn't get dead. What I am talking about in this thread is on developing new ways to fool the older and wiser coyotes. I hope this makes sense.

 

[quail hunter]

I'm always short a few cells....geeez

 

[Crow Woman]

In my opinion, Coyotes are the most intellegient, cunning, adaptable, challenging and always changing. Not one person will ever know exactly how to capture those elusive ones before he crosses over. As soon as you think you know it all, the coyotes change the rules! lol It seems like they are always making us work for them more and more each day.

I always need that fix of new information to get my brain cells excited

But, yeah, I know what you are saying. Sometimes the technical stuff can be overwhelming and I get to thinking too hard about all the points and less to the coyote, himself. And sometimes, that is exactly what I do, I just hop on the four wheeler and take my chances by leaving my calls at home, just to enjoy the outdoors and maybe bring home one strapped to my gun rack

out of pure luck

of course

Those hunts do have more meaning at times...

 

[Rich Higgins]

I enjoyed the old home theory also. If coyotes were human it would make sense, however no coyote is encumbered by sentiment. Survival instinct overrides all else. If a den is discovered and disturbed coyotes will abandon it in a heartbeat. No old home sentiment. If it becomes infested with parasites it is abandoned without sentiment. That's why the female digs as many as a dozen dens before whelping. When the pups are mobile and too large to retreat to the safety of a den the whole pack takes up residence in a rendevous site without sentiment. Depending on all the obvious factors influencing their behavior within their territory ,the site may be removed from the denning area, or if all criteria is met it may be in the same area. My point to you Brad is simple, don't waste your time hiking through their territory hunting for their dens when the correct howls will locate them so easily. The lone howl is not an efficient locator, variations of it are, however, the best calls. Using coyote vocalizations to locate and call in coyotes is new to many recreational callers and most believe that is a relatively recent innovation. ADC hunters have been utilizing the techniques for decades. J.R. Alcorn of the U.S. Wildlife Service wrote an article for Journal of Mammalogy entitled "Decoying Coyotes" in which he described howling to locate the coyotes then using a rabbit distress to call them in. That was in 1946. 57 years ago. A great deal has been learned about the subject since then but not much of the accurate information is shared. Probably perpetuated by the attitude that if coyotes can't read why should I bother? Simple basic fact- Researchers use the group yip-howl as a locator because that vocalization elicits a like response from adjacent packs more than any other. I still read on the boards callers instructing others to use the lone howl to locate. My favorite is the oft stated " I blew a challenge but nothing showed up". A challenge is an invitation to do battle. Elk blow challenges. Coyotes do not. Agonistic vocalizations are graded. That is, they escalate with the encounter. It may begin with a warning bark to the intruder meaning 'Don't come any closer". If the intruder continues to approach it will escalate to a threat bark-howl (mistaken for a challenge)which basically means "Leave now or else". So if you set up a stand in overlapping home range or along boundaries or even within undefended home territory and loudly demand that all coyotes within hearing distance "Leave now, or else" they very likely will. Transients, nomads certainly will. The threat bark-howl is very efficient in calling adult residents IF you are set up within their defended core territory. Of course if you should find any old well-read copies of study results lying around the coyotes core territories, you should probably not waste your time. Better to tip em over while they are peeing. heh heh

 

[Pup]

Rich Higgins,

So very well said, especially on the agonistic howls.
If you copy an agonistic howl improperly that coyote probably won't come in, and by improperly I mean add too much to quick.

I answered a challenge with a challenge one time , no show. I have set several stands where my pardner threw out the challenge in answer to a challenge, no show.
I have lone howled after a challenge, then light challenged a challenge, then full challenged after a kniption fit, and got a coyote in.
As always Rich, you have explained it well.

later pup

 

[Rich Cronk]

There will always be folks like Rich Higgins who fancy theirself to be experts in coyote behavior and coyote language. You can almost always count on these self proclaimed experts to do their level best to stop guys like me from helping folks become better callers. Well folks, I don't know it all. Mr Wise guy Rich Higgins wins this one. He is obviously the expert here now. Have fun Rich Higgins, you can take over this thread now. All I wanted to do over here or anywhere else in cyber world is to help people. Smart alecks like Higgins are a dime a dozen. One of us will bow out of Moosies Varmint forum now. It is up to the members and leaders of Moosies which one it is. Higgins and his 250.00 howlers can take over the dang world if you folks want to let them. Me, I will just call coyotes. People like Higgins will be delighted to see me gone, because then they can further confuse nice folks like most of you here at Moosies.

 

[quail hunter]

Rich Cronk,
Don't run off yet, This calling the old wise dogs is interesting to me , I've done alot of calling, and have always just used a mouth call preferably cottontail, always worked more on my setup than changing calls,so this howling thing is new to me,
I've been calling for 28 years now, no its not how I make a living its just a fun thing to do, I don't have a clue who the famous people are, I've never heard of any of the people on here, so I'm not taking sides ,I'm just picking up info and this howling thing is interesting,
so can you just go out on a stand and howl or do you have to do all that area locating?

 

[DAA]

I wish guys like Rich Higgins were a dime a dozen. Fact is though, they ain't!

I'm not "voting" or wishing you to leave Mr. Cronk, but when Mr. Higgins wants to talk coyote behavior, I'm always ready to listen. It would be a damn shame if he were encouraged to leave just because you don't like him injecting his extremely relevant observations into these conversations. I mean, for myself, it's for threads like this that I read these boards. If the conversation always ends at "coyotes don't read, just go call them and shoot them", I sure as hell wouldn't bother to read them.

- DAA

 

[Rich Higgins]

My goodness, Rich, it's just a "thang". Relax and think about this a little. Like many of your posts I see some inaccuracies in this one and would like to address them. First an expert has more answers than questions, that rules me out. Secondly I would never dream of stopping you or anyone else from helping others or from expressing your opinion. Why would you want to deprive me of the same privilage? Next, you say you don't know it all, then why do you resist addititional information being posted on your thread? Next you say Rich H wins this one. What in the world have I won? Are you going to send me to Disneyland? And then this "One of us will bow out.... it is up to the members to decide which one... Did you give any thought to this statement? Are the members to hold a popularity contest and vote one of us off? Is it an ultimatum? Unfair to everyone. Last inaccuracy, "Higgins will be glad to see me gone". On the contrary, I consider you an asset to this and all the other boards you participate on. But a simple truth is that some of us have been doing this as long and even longer than you, and in different ways than you,and although we can respect your experience, accomplishments, and longevity, we can do so without always agreeing with you. I am really surprised that a man who spent most of his life enforcing the law would want to deprive me of that basic right. Why don't you re-read this thread and give it a little thought?

 

[Rich Cronk]

Rich Higgins,
First of all, if you read the opening posts of this thread you will see that this was a sort of on line seminar that I offered to give and a few members asked me to do so. Secondly, much of what I know about howling coyotes was learned from the coyotes. More of what I learned about howling coyotes, was shown to me by a man that even you have admitted is one of the best callers around. SH When I go to a seminar I listen, not butt in and attempt to cancel out everything the speaker is trying to explain. This is not the first time that you have stuck your nose in to my affairs. If you started a thread to teach your book learned knowledge, I would be polite enough to keep my mouth shut. I know from past experience that you are not polite enough to butt out. Prove me wrong Rich Higgins. Butt out of this thread and go start your own. I was trying to tell people about what I know actually works in the field. Stuff that I have seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears. You mention my Police career. I had to deal with butt heads like you for my entire career, and I don't have to put up with your constant badgering now. I was just starting to believe that you were actually going to try to get along. You even have said a thing or two that I agree with. I won't allow guys like you to stop me from helping people, but if you are not polite enough to butt out of this thread then I will be polite enough to leave on my own.

 

[Rich Cronk]

To the good folks here at Moosies,
I am sorry to have lost my temper on your board. I will be waiting to see what type of decision Rich Higgins makes. This may well be my last post here. Only time will tell.

 

[Pup]

Quail Hunter,

In an attempt to answer your question, although I am not the one you asked it of, here goes, that fella is in a tiff right now.

I use the howl in primarily two ways.
I sometimes when I am just out and about, will stop around dusk or early morning, near spots where I am going to hunt or do hunt and will howl. I am normally with a buddy and we do group howls. I have by myself just lone howled and received a response, which is normally a group howl. This lets me know where they are at that time, mind you they might not be there in the morning, but there are definitely coyotes there at that time. I am not saying that if you don't get a response that the yotes aren't there either, but most times you get a response.

Other way I use a howl is at the first of a stand for realism, and attraction. I will "lone" howl, I try and stay what I call long and soft, as I don't want to appear dominate. I want to be a weak yote that has invaded somebody's territory, and when the distress comes, the one that can be easily whipped for the meal, or one that just needs checked out. I have called several with just that howl that came in hard before I ever got to the distress sounds.

Either way howling has been a win, win situation with my success. The only time it has not worked is when I used an challenge or agonistic type howl or bark at the wrong time. Thus the advice to stay long and soft, at first.
There are several tapes out there that promote howling and have some instruction on them, one of the best that I have seen so far on plain how to is Calling all Coyotes, by Randy Anderson, The First one. It is a good tape anyway. If you could persuade Rich Higgins to send you a copy of some of his encounters, that is well worth the effort.

Howling is a good tool to add to your arsenal. But hey, If your getting good results without it , it is hard to argue with success. I just like having all the cool calls, and impressing the neighbors with the howls in the evening. lol....

later pup

 

[Slydog]

1st off Rich, No one here wants you to go anywhere. You are a member here and very welcome. Just because people don't agree with your way of calling don't mean you have to blow out of here, thats ridiculas. .

sly

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 07-20-2003 00:16: Message edited by: Doug ]</font>

 

[quail hunter]

Thanks for the info,
I can picture the howl that you described,
Now, so you just buy a howl call and you can auotmatically howl? or do you need a mouth diaphram to go along with the howler?
Boy I bet you can get the neighbor dogs going with that howl..huh?
Thanks for answering.

 

[Pup]

Rich Cronk,

Why should either of you have to leave?

Both of you are knowledgable about coyotes, and have some good tips to offer.

If you are expecting the mods or admins to jump in on this one , good luck and just a note, look at the top of the page and see which board you are on. They are not heavy- handed here, in my opinion.

I did not read the thread title as "Howling coyotes", a seminar by Rich Cronk. It just reads "Howling coyotes".
I have to agree with DAA, when there is meat and potatoes being served, somebody is going to have to stand to eat, because the table will be full.

I know, I know, you didn't ask for my advice. But I didn't charge you anything for it either. I just hate the thought of putting people on the spot by having to pick sides on these things.

Like I said I hate to see either of you leave, but if you are going to go, just do so and save the drama for Thursday night T.V.

later pup

 

[Pup]

Quail Hunter,

Not much harder than that, but some practice is probably needed, or in my case it was. There are some wavs outthere that you can get that will give you an idea of what sound to try and copy. Rich Cronk has several soundwaves that he would probably send you or direct you too, if you would ask him.
I liked Randy Anderson's instruction on it as he demonstrated how to hold the call, mouth placement etc., which I found helpful at first. He use the open reed, type howlers, ELK produces a band type howler, which also produces a good sound, I had to practice with the band a little more to get the hang of it. Kinda like Chevy's and Fords, you will get a few opinions.

later pup

 

[Dick Reece]

Yeah,it's an interesting subject,glad Rich C brought it up.Question Rich H,what is a "group" yip-howl composed of,how many barks and howls,and what makes it different from an ordinary yip-howl ?

In setting up to howl a coyote in,what do you recommend as the very best procedure for doing so, especially in the fall season ?