How old?

[Stubaby]

Montana mule deer sometimes throw me for a loop. I swear I’ve seen tons of bucks in the “prime” of their lives but most never seem to score well. Crabby fronts or missing g3s are not exactly far and few between——even on what I belive are 3-6 year old deer.
I was helping a 13 year old kid I had just met get his Montana deer tag filled. He just didn’t want to shoot a young deer and good for him.

I found this buck bedded across this coulee and assisted in his shot. I got a pretty good pic of the buck before he stood up. Anybody think this deer could be older than 3-1/2? I’m fairly confident he’s over 2-1/2 years old. I know the rut swells their neck and all. I also know the teeth are a rule of thumb but last I checked it’s hard to check the teeth on a buck that is still breathing.
Anyway—this buck doesn’t score well but I think he’s mature and might never be a 145+ type deer—-ever—-no matter what. Any thoughts?

 

[golfer]

hard to tell. Looks rather narrow but I’d put money on it that he’s not 145+ Did ya get any photos of him standing up?

 

[robsev]

I think He looks pretty young, guessing 2 1/2. his Nose is pretty short, which is a sign of a younger buck. Usually when a buck is over 3 his nose is noticeably longer.

 

[EYJONAS!]

I don't think he's over 3.5, let's see a picture of the buck on the ground.

 

[The Hedgehog]

I’d be more capable of guessing the ago of a middle aged woman than a mule deer buck from a photo. It’s less than 10, more than 2.

 

[The Hedgehog]

My honest swag is 5-6, or not young.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

I saw a couple of 18ish inch three points off the north end of the Custer many years ago that were 10-12ish years old, based on tooth wear.

 

[Stubaby]

hard to tell. Looks rather narrow but I’d put money on it that he’s not 145+ Did ya get any photos of him standing up?

No. I was watching the impact though my spotter so I could let him know if he hit the mark. I’m not saying he’s 145. Not even close. I’m just asking if this deer based on genetics could have ever got there no matter how long he lived.

 

[Irrelevant]

I feel more confident looking at the body and back than they horns. And he looks like a big body, but his face doesn't look overly old.

 

[EYJONAS!]

No. I was watching the impact though my spotter so I could let him know if he hit the mark. I’m not saying he’s 145. Not even close. I’m just asking if this deer based on genetics could have ever got there no matter how long he lived.

Uh what?! Unless I'm reading this wrong you just contradicted what you said in your original post.

Anyway—this buck doesn’t score well but I think he’s mature and might never be a 145+ type deer—-ever—-no matter what. Any thoughts?

Guess no one will ever know if he could've gotten bigger but that's the issue in Montana 99.8 percent of bucks that have some sort of 4pt or better frame never make it to full maturity.

Doesn't matter he's dead now....... send his teeth in and let us know.

 

[Talk2elk]

Judging from his body size he would be at least five.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

My honest swag is 5-6, or not young.

What drives your guess?

I saw a pile of deer this year and I just assumed that forkies were 1.5, small 3x3 were 3.5 and that light 4x4 were 3.5... is that an incorrect thought process?

 

[cahunter805]

Hard to guess from just a picture but looks 3.5-4.5 to me.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

This is long, there's a pic at the end for the impatient.

I've thought about this quite a bit from a biological standpoint, talked to quite a few people about it. I did a big annotated bibliography years ago in grad school that covered over 100 publications on antler formation, morphology, and function. I am far from an expert, I've just looked into it some. There are a few things I feel like there is a preponderance of evidence on, others not so much.

For instance, I buy that the nutrition of the mother doe while buck X is in utero (great Nirvana album btw) matters a bunch for the potential antler size of buck X. Relatedly, I can believe that habitat quality matters big time...the Monteith whitetail study gets cited a lot. They did a swap of whitetails from known "big buck" country and "small buck" country; the bucks from "small buck" country grew big antlers when they were in big buck habitat. If I recall there was no statistically significant difference in antler size when habitat differences were accounted for by the swap. That said, I am skeptical about how widely that can be applied.

We know that genetics set the morphological sideboards for what antlers (and any other physical characteristics) will look like. Nutrition is a substantial factor that would influence an animal's ability to achieve a given expression of those characteristics, but there is a lot more to it. For example, if buck X and buck Y are both putting on adequate fat reserves, does the native level of Mg, P, Ca, in forage a factor into why one might express greater antler growth than the other? What role does selective harvest play in some units with very high or very low hunter pressure? Almost all antler research with controllable variables has been conducted on whitetail deer in the midwest and Texas or on reindeer; are we assuming too much about the extent to which principles can be applied across cervid species? How about nutrition and management for migratory vs non-migratory mule deer herds?

Anyway, I don't think that buck has been or would be a 150" deer. Could definitely be wrong. The oldest deer I've killed (based on tooth wear only) were tanks and had long square faces. I feel pretty confident watching one saunter around on a hill that I can tell between youngish and oldish -- young dinks obvious and excluded -- even with roughly comparably scoring antlers, but that's about it. I don't think most of the better scoring bucks I've killed are what I'd consider old.

This is definitely the oldest buck I've killed, no idea on specific age. If I recall he scored in the low or mid 150's. I don't see his frame being capable of much more than another 10" or so tops even if this is a regressed condition. Not only based on this deer, but hundreds of other bucks in that area observed over many years.

 

[EYJONAS!]

Judging from his body size he would be at least five.

I guess I don't see how you can tell that from a single picture with nothing to judge him by.

Id like to see a picture of the hunter and the buck or another angle of him. A bedded mid November buck is gonna look bigger but i am guessing he doesn't have a huge body.

 

[The Hedgehog]

What drives your guess?

I saw a pile of deer this year and I just assumed that forkies were 1.5, small 3x3 were 3.5 and that light 4x4 were 3.5... is that an incorrect thought process?

Nothing to do with antlers. See Snowymtn's post above.

Ever walk behind a gal on the sidewalk and you're like "damn".. they she turns around and your like.. ewwww..she's the crypt keeper look alike. I'm only looking at the head/face on that deer.

@Stubaby is there an eartag on that buck? Show a picture of it's teeth. I'm still guessing older, such as 5+

 

[EYJONAS!]

@SnowyMountaineer that may be one of the best posts I've ever seen. You might have even just trumped @wllm1313

 

[EYJONAS!]

 

[Deleted member 16014]

I bet @Oak has some valuable insight.

 

[Stubaby]

Uh what?! Unless I'm reading this wrong you just contradicted what you said in your original post.



Guess no one will ever know if he could've gotten bigger but that's the issue in Montana 99.8 percent of bucks that have some sort of 4pt or better frame never make it to full maturity.

Doesn't matter he's dead now....... send his teeth in and let us know.

He asked me if I ever got a pic of him standing up. I did not. I took the picture bedded then I was looking though the spotter when he shot. I never hinted that he was close to 145. I stated that he wasn’t and then I asked if these deer who get to this stage of life would ever make it past 145—-even if they lived old enough to die of old age.

Lots of times people will say they won’t shoot a buck because he doesn’t score well and they want “give him another year”. Next year doesn’t mean that it would be bigger based on age alone. I believe that genetics play the biggest role on antler growth once they deer gets “mature”.
Anyway, here are some more pics from yesterday. He made a perfect shot with the 6.5 creed and 143 eldx. Buck went 12 yards and that was all she wrote. Super pretty cape that I’m going to mount a buck I killed a few years back with. I’m not sure where they stand on internet pics so I blocked the faces out. Orange was worn by all for all but the pics.