How Old Was that Animal?

[Big Sky Guy]

I plan to send some teeth in to Matson Labs, but I came across a few articles that give me less confidence than I had before. It appears as though TPWD sent in a number of samples from known aged deer and Matson Labs did worse than tooth wear aging, and neither method was very accurate. I still plan to send some in because I’ve had a few bucks aged by tooth wear when pulling CWD samples and I don’t think the age estimates TPWD gave me could possibly be correct.

Florida and especially Texas, as well as some of the other southern populations of game animals, typically have lower accuracy and precision. All populations (with a large enough sample size) will have deer in them that are difficult to age, but the Texas deer are generally the most difficult to age and have a much higher percentage of difficult to age deer in them than northern populations.

We've seen teeth under the scope that we would have guessed were from a "northern" state with crisp, clear, distinct annuli, likewise we've seen teeth under the scope from northern states that I would have guessed were from the south (although neither is the general trend we see).

 

[sclancy27]

Here's another cool comparision. I have jaw pictures from 2 of the bucks in my first post. Notice the difference in tooth wear on those bucks!!

Below the 4.5 yr old buck, notice there is smoothing on the premolars and most of the molars, but they still have the shape.


Now look at the same teeth on the 6.5 yr old buck. Premolars and most of the molars are eroded flat, even the top teeth are smoothing and flattening. These 2 bucks were shot 5-10 miles apart.

 

[TheTone]

Wish I had pulled one from this one. The fact she lived this long in an area with strong bear, lion and wolf populations is impressive. I should go look for her jaw this spring

 

[Big Sky Guy]

This seems like a good thread to post this in.

6 bulls harvested in one drainage in 6 years. Ages range from 4 to 8 years old. Photos in the article.

Thanks to @JT88 as he helped out considerably with several of these bulls.

The Age of the Honey Hole | Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation

Honey Hole (noun): Named after a beehive for its honey, slang for a location that yields a valued commodity or resource, which, in this case, …

www.rmef.org

 

[Schaaf]

I'm mainly curious about the giant @Schaaf killed. That butthole sniffer hunted one of my favorite spots for a total of 3 or 4 days before killing a buck bigger than I ever have.

Teeth of said deer

 

[RobertD]

Whitetails die younger and peak younger than mule deer. A friend of mine married into a high fence operation doing selective breeding and buying semen straws. Their first real giant peaked at 5.5 yrs old, declined for two years, and died at 8.5. His 6.5yr sheds were a little bigger than his 4.5yr sheds. His 7.5yr sheds were a lot smaller. They never found his 8.5yr sheds. The point is, don’t feel bad about killing 5.5yr old whitetails. That’s a very mature whitetail in his prime.

Below is a different deer. He peaked at 6.5 and was killed at 8.5. It’s easy to track because the had ear tags. He was referred to by his ear tag color and number. Ie “Blue 42”, but of course he wasn’t “blue 42”..Again, the point is 5.5yrs is just right on a whitetail.

Up the road from my house is a property where they manage whitetails very intensely and have a high fence around about 3/4 of the property, which is several thousand acres in size. No semen straws or ear tags just wild deer well managed and most neighboring properties fenced out. I asked him what they observed regarding age vs quality and he insists that 6.5 is the peak for the majority of bucks and that they target 6.5 year olds almost exclusively for that reason

 

[RobertD]

Wish I had pulled one from this one. The fact she lived this long in an area with strong bear, lion and wolf populations is impressive. I should go look for her jaw this spring

That kind of thing makes you wonder how much of it was luck and how much was her just being an old wily badass

 

[RobertD]

Florida and especially Texas, as well as some of the other southern populations of game animals, typically have lower accuracy and precision. All populations (with a large enough sample size) will have deer in them that are difficult to age, but the Texas deer are generally the most difficult to age and have a much higher percentage of difficult to age deer in them than northern populations.

We've seen teeth under the scope that we would have guessed were from a "northern" state with crisp, clear, distinct annuli, likewise we've seen teeth under the scope from northern states that I would have guessed were from the south (although neither is the general trend we see).

I'm guessing this has something to do with wintertime Temps? Seems like you guys mentioned that on your podcast with Randy

 

[TheTone]

That kind of thing makes you wonder how much of it was luck and how much was her just being an old wily badass

I hope the latter and they she taught it to her calves, especially the bulls

 

[ImBillT]

Up the road from my house is a property where they manage whitetails very intensely and have a high fence around about 3/4 of the property, which is several thousand acres in size. No semen straws or ear tags just wild deer well managed and most neighboring properties fenced out. I asked him what they observed regarding age vs quality and he insists that 6.5 is the peak for the majority of bucks and that they target 6.5 year olds almost exclusively for that reason

My two data points are 5.5 for a semen straw buck and 6.5 for his grandson. I don’t know what age the average peak was on that place. I never discussed it with them. I only fished, road 4-wheelers and shot dove. My point was simply that a guy killing 5.5yr old whitetails should not feel like he’s killing young bucks when he see all the 6.5+ year old mule deer posted in this thread. Whitetails peak a little earlier, and definitely decline. If a high fence ranch that has a food plot and a protein feeder at every blind is having bucks peak at 5.5 or 6.5 and seeing substantial decline at 7.5 and 8.5, then by no means is killing a whitetail at 5.5 on low fence or public anything to be worried about in terms of “think about how big he woulda been next” type of thinking. Maybe he’d have been bigger, maybe he’d have been the same, maybe he’d have declined. There’s literally no way to know. Maybe the deer that got aged 5.5 wasn’t even 5.5.

I would 100% believe that most peak at 6.5. It probably depends on the area.

I took two things away from my fishing and dove hunting on the high fence property. 1) Even deer who have the easy life and eat fantastic feed USUALLY peak AROUND 5.5-6.5. There will be occasional outliers in any population and when examining any trait, but we should not base management on outliers. 2) High fence hunting is not the same as hunting on low fence, and the deer are not the same deer.

 

[easternmt]

I got the results back from Matson's lab.
8 years old on this buck.View attachment 260338

Pretty impressive….. so was the buck even at three it’s no wonder you saw his potential andheld on to his sheds!

 

[RobertD]

My two data points are 5.5 for a semen straw buck and 6.5 for his grandson. I don’t know what age the average peak was on that place. I never discussed it with them. I only fished, road 4-wheelers and shot dove. My point was simply that a guy killing 5.5yr old whitetails should not feel like he’s killing young bucks when he see all the 6.5+ year old mule deer posted in this thread. Whitetails peak a little earlier, and definitely decline. If a high fence ranch that has a food plot and a protein feeder at every blind is having bucks peak at 5.5 or 6.5 and seeing substantial decline at 7.5 and 8.5, then by no means is killing a whitetail at 5.5 on low fence or public anything to be worried about in terms of “think about how big he woulda been next” type of thinking. Maybe he’d have been bigger, maybe he’d have been the same, maybe he’d have declined. There’s literally no way to know. Maybe the deer that got aged 5.5 wasn’t even 5.5.

I would 100% believe that most peak at 6.5. It probably depends on the area.

I took two things away from my fishing and dove hunting on the high fence property. 1) Even deer who have the easy life and eat fantastic feed USUALLY peak AROUND 5.5-6.5. There will be occasional outliers in any population and when examining any trait, but we should not base management on outliers. 2) High fence hunting is not the same as hunting on low fence, and the deer are not the same deer.

Agree 100% with everything. All a part of what makes it special to me to pursue bucks that I know (with relative confidence) are 4.5 or older

Also makes it funny when I see guys with deer that are almost certainly 3.5 and they do the whole "old warrior going downhill" thing, haha

 

[ImBillT]

Can you post the link? I have a hard time believing that tooth wear aging would even come close to cementum annuli.

I’ll look for it. I’m not saying they were correct, but it is what they claimed.

 

[ImBillT]

Agree 100% with everything. All a part of what makes it special to me to pursue bucks that I know (with relative confidence) are 4.5 or older

Also makes it funny when I see guys with deer that are almost certainly 3.5 and they do the whole "old warrior going downhill" thing, haha

I may have been that guy once or twice. I try not to be. Hunting and killing more deer helps figure it out.

 

[ImBillT]

Can you post the link? I have a hard time believing that tooth wear aging would even come close to cementum annuli.

Not the same article, but still TX deer and similar data, maybe the same data set. Missing the age of known age deer 75%-87% of the time isn’t very encouraging.

A Key for Aging White-Tailed Deer Using the Tooth Replacement and Wear Technique

White-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus) are the most hunted and economically important game species in North America.1 Deer population management is...

lgpress.clemson.edu

 

[Big Sky Guy]

I'm guessing this has something to do with wintertime Temps? Seems like you guys mentioned that on your podcast with Randy

That’s what we believe, but is sort of a difficult thing to prove/study. The lack of any sort of seasonal stresses likely due to the relatively mild climate and generally nice weather year round.

Interestingly polar bears are also extremely difficult to age too. As are river otters and mountain lions (regardless of region).

We are supposed to be getting a bunch of teeth from a large high fence area in Florida. I suspect they will be very difficult. Supplemental feeding seems to also cause the annuli to be less distinct and more difficult to distinguish. 4 year old 300” deer are not natural.

As for “peaking” I think it varies more than we realize. 5-6 seems to be a good general rule for deer. Still undecided about elk, we’ve had elk that were over 400” aged at 12 and the Felix bull which was also well over 400” was only 6. I’ve always heard 8 for elk but these ages (which are from wild elk) seem to expand that a bit more. Would the Felix bull have gone 450”+ if let go to 8+? Was that 12 year old bull 450” at 8? We will never know. A 400” bull is going to get shot no matter what the age is.

We’ve also had some 200” white tails (wild free range) come through from the Midwest that were 4. Guy was pretty sure it was a “young” deer so it seemed to line up with what he knew about the deer, but still seemed crazy that it wasn’t at its “peak.”

Have also had instances where the annuli were crystal clear but the results were still younger by 1 year. A guy had a bull on camera ever since it was (presumably) a 2 year old rag horn and it had a messed up, very distinct side. We aged it at 7 but it should have been 8 (unless it was a rag horn as a 1 year old).

 

[ImBillT]

(unless it was a rag horn as a 1 year old).

While it was a high fence deer from a semen straw, I’ve seen a one year old whitetail that I would have considered a trophy. I don’t know how many 1yr old elk qualify as rag horns, but I wouldn’t say it’s impossible. While refer to the deer from that high fence operation as “fake deer”, the genetics are 100% whitetail genetics. Theoretically whatever they grow could conceivably happen in the wild, however unlikely. I would almost say aging him 7.5 when the cam data says 8.5 based him being 2.5 in the first cam photos means that you’re more likely correct that he’s 7.5. The freaks aren’t freaks because they got old. Freaks are freaks. I don’t know what the odds are if a bull being a rag horn at 1.5, but the whitetail I’m talking about was probably 140+ 10pt with stickers all over at 1.5.

Just my non-scientific opinion.

 

[7Bartman]

Not the same article, but still TX deer and similar data, maybe the same data set. Missing the age of known age deer 75%-87% of the time isn’t very encouraging.

A Key for Aging White-Tailed Deer Using the Tooth Replacement and Wear Technique

White-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus) are the most hunted and economically important game species in North America.1 Deer population management is...

lgpress.clemson.edu

Thanks for posting! I'm a scientist so this was enlightening. The one aspect that makes me feel better is that my samples were all of "Northern" animals and CA tended to bias towards younger not older. It seems CA also has a low accuracy for 1.5 year olds, which with deer are fairly easy to age looking at teeth and rack size. I doubt they get many customers sending in 1.5 year olds. CA may be fit "fit-for-purpose", however they should provide some more transparency on their error rates.

 

[ImBillT]

Thanks for posting! I'm a scientist so this was enlightening. The one aspect that makes me feel better is that my samples were all of "Northern" animals and CA tended to bias towards younger not older. It seems CA also has a low accuracy for 1.5 year olds, which with deer are fairly easy to age looking at teeth and rack size. I doubt they get many customers sending in 1.5 year olds. CA may be fit "fit-for-purpose", however they should provide some more transparency on their error rates.

According to that particular study both CA and tooth wear were so inaccurate that I’m not convinced anything useful can be done with the data. Unfortunately TX has just instituted an antler restriction based on correlating antler spread with age. I would really like to get my hands on their data, as I’m not remotely convinced that there is a strong enough correlation to be useful, and I’m even less convinced that any of their age data is accurate enough to be useful.

 

[gonhunting247]

This Blacktail came back as 9. It is the oldest deer I've had aged!