High End Rifles and Shotguns

[Europe]

On a recent thread high end rifles made in Europe, were mentioned as an example of obsolete caliber's on Mauser actions still being made, just not as production rifles. And that some of these rifles could be found on the used rack for a good price, which would give one, one of the "obsolete" calibers, made by one of high end rifle manufacturers with a Mauser action at a reasonable price.-----And---I do not disagree. We did exactly this for a variety of reasons----the look of the rifle, the action on the rifle, the quality of the rifle, the caliber of the rifle, and could we get at the very least, our money back on this investment, after it was used by us, even to the extent of looking at the purchase, strictly, as an investment. Just like buying stock in Microsoft or Apple --which will give one the best return on your money in the future ?

before I ask my question, I would also like to say that although we agreed that products made by Holland and Holland, Jeffery, Fabbri, Westley Richards, Purdy, Rigby ( and Rigby is now back in England ) and several others were in fact excellent products, it should be noted that Searcy in Calif makes a nice 450/400 and 404 Jeff, Kilamanjero makes nice rifles and I used one of their 6.5 x55 Artemis rifles ( rifles built for women ) but did not own it, but it was very nice.--both looks and function, Martini in Canada makes excellent 9.3 x 62, 9.3 x 74R and others and they are superb. Connecticut makes excellent products, plus lets dont forget some of the Winchester products. Their pre 64 model 70 action is actually preferred over the mauser action by some. And then we also have the rifles that Dan, Ben and Brent like, which go back in time even further.

My question is would you spend money on a rifle, just as you would on real estate hoping it will increase in price or a stock in a particular company, a classic automobile maybe a 65 Mustang (-; ( a couple fellows here will understand my mustang reference )---or do you only use rifles and shotguns to hunt, target shot, enjoy but they are a disposable product in your life, so to speak.

I was recently ask if I wanted to buy a side by side double made by Connecticut in the 22lr caliber for 25000.00 I passed. But if I found a 450/400 side by side made by Holland and Holland in good condition for 25000, I would buy it as I believe I could turn a buck at that price for that gun, even after my family used it for a bit.

I am curious as to your thoughts gentlemen ?

 

[jryoung]

For the most part, rifles and shotguns are tools, toys, and hopefully an heirloom in the future. That is not to say I wouldn't buy firearms for potential future value, I just don't have the knowledge and expertise for identifying undervalued or potential growth type firearm. There are just too many nuances, not to mention often regulatory challenges which can quickly erode margin.

I've done well buying, collecting, flipping and drinking wine....and I've bought many many wines without ever the intention of drinking it knowing I could turn it on the secondary market for 2x or 3x purchase price.

 

[Mallardsx2]

I dont think a guy could go wrong buying DPMS Ar-15's by the truckload right now..........

 

[Losing_Sanity]

It would be nice to afford some of the guns on the high end. Unfortunately, if it's too nice I won't use it for fear I'll mess it up, and I don't make enough to buy stuff that my Grandchildren will drag through the rocks. ☺ Much to my wife's disappointment, I never sell or get rid of anything.
I have always fantasized of owning a custom made rifle for hunting, but I am doomed for the slightly over budget, over the counter, mass production variety.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I think that investing in firearms is a passion and not an investment strategy that will result in big yields, personally. Yes, if done wisely, your investment increases but often times it takes a generation or two to realize that return. Then it falls to a select market of other firearms investors who are looking for what you have. In the fine gun market, that means you'll sit on a gun for years waiting for the right buyer. For example - I have a Cody made Ballard Schutzen in 32-40. There's a very small market for that rifle that would number in the hundreds of people at most. Putting it in front of them will cost about 15% of the value of the rifle, and then I'll still only get about what was paid for it.

Meanwhile, the Greifelt that I bought two years ago will likely increase in value over the next 30 years, and the market for an O/U shotgun will be consistently strong, especially for a sub 7 pound 12 gauge.

So I do tend to purchase firearms that I believe will increase in value, but I'm not looking at it as an investment strategy beyond having firearms I enjoy, and that my family members will hold dear as well after I pass.

 

[BrentD]

I don't buy guns as investments. That might take the fun out of it for me. I have made money on guns, sometimes thousands of dollars, but that was never why I bought it.

I look at firearms as basically free, but with a substantial deposit. I put down whatever cash is needed, and when I'm done with the rifle I return it to the market and pick up my deposit, give or take a little.

I also do not worry about putting some honest wear on them either. A big part of old guns is their patina, and whether I know the story behind it or not, I appreciate it and add a little more to it.

This evening, I will chase turkeys. I will use an barely old, and not particularly valuable 1897 Winchester that was bought by my grandfather and his brothers over 100 yrs ago. It has hunting licenses from 1917 Montana until 2018 Iowa stuffed under the butt cap. I won't take them out today, but knowing they are there is all part of the experience. Some lucky bastard will probably never know what's under that butt plate after he steals it at my estate auction someday. His loss if he doesn't look...

 

[VikingsGuy]

I don't buy guns as investments. That might take the fun out of it for me. I have made money on guns, sometimes thousands of dollars, but that was never why I bought it.

I look at firearms as basically free, but with a substantial deposit. I put down whatever cash is needed, and when I'm done with the rifle I return it to the market and pick up my deposit, give or take a little.

I also do not worry about putting some honest wear on them either. A big part of old guns is their patina, and whether I know the story behind it or not, I appreciate it and add a little more to it.

This evening, I will chase turkeys. I will use an barely old, and not particularly valuable 1897 Winchester that was bought by my grandfather and his brothers over 100 yrs ago. It has hunting licenses from 1917 Montana until 2018 Iowa stuffed under the butt cap. I won't take them out today, but knowing they are there is all part of the experience. Some lucky bastard will probably never know what's under that butt plate after he steals it at my estate auction someday. His loss if he doesn't look...

Tell your heirs to give me a ring when you pass — would be happy to buy a few of the guns you have shown off here on HT

 

[BrentD]

My heirs?

 

[noharleyyet]

I frequently purchase used quality firearms from vetted sources, some right here on the forum. Not exhibition pieces nor expensive by any means but aesthetics and function requisite...most requiring scant tinkering to satisfy ridiculous accuracy expectations. Often offered they're not for sale, although a couple have gone in fair trades for pieces I like very much. I hunt them all and do not abuse nor baby. For my sensitivities a 25K 'investment' firearm would have to be a purchase/move situation with enough upside lock to carry the risk. 25K sunk into my business being far more into my comfort zone. I've gifted enough to my boys to keep a solo safe full..and I pledge/prevaricate every new addition as being the last.

Hard to say what our younger grandsons' dispositions will be but they're are in line if they prove to be responsible recipients.

 

[Europe]

jryoung--I love the wine tasting/collecting hobby (-;

mallardsz2 Good point, although I dont have one

Losing-sanity-and there are some very nice ones that will let one hunt-hunt-hunt. The critter never knows if he was shot with a Savage or Holland and Holland

Ben-I went from hand me downs, to mass production, to some custom and back to mass production ( the weatherby for my granddaughter )

Brent. Your Butt cap story is priceless, thanks for sharing

Viking guy--plus one !

noharleyyet your sons and grandsons are fortunate to have you as a dad/granddad

thanks guys, interesting -----for me personally, my customs were 1. gifts and 2. for the purpose of fitting me more than caliber, manufacturer, etc.. As I did "hunt" with them. My husband went three ways--rifles to hunt with, rifles to buy sell, trade and "play" with, and rifles as investments---which turned out to be investments for our children, as the ones he bought for investment reasons we still have or the children do, but he is gone.

thanks for your input on the thread

 

[BrentD]

Another one for under the butt cap. 30 minutes ago.

 

[Summitthunting]

For example - I have a Cody made Ballard Schutzen in 32-40.

Did you purchase the Ballard new? I was a gunsmith in their shop up until they left Cody. That was a fun job!

 

[choc dogs]

I don't have anything that would qualify as "high end" by any means, but I've got family firearms that mean the world to me. My dad bought a m70 270, and a m12 heavy duck in the spring of 1952. In July my parents got married, and I don't think very many firearms joined the family for many years, instead it was children. I currently am the custodian of those winchesters, and will make sure my father's grandchildren, or great grandchildren get to use them. I'm also the baby sitter for the m70 308 made in 1958, that was cut down to child size sometime around 1968, when my oldest sister wanted to hunt, and that all of my siblings and I carried on our early hunting expeditions. All have way too much honest wear to be collectible, but they're invaluable to me.

 

[BrentD]

Did you purchase the Ballard new? I was a gunsmith in their shop up until they left Cody. That was a fun job!

I have one of you high wall actions then. The gun was built by others but the action is a "BallWall."

 

[BrentD]

Would one of you please buy this rifle! It is the ultimate hunting rifle. Perhaps the single most desireable rifle of all time. Buy, hunt it, and put some more patina on it. It is out of my price range.

https://www.rockislandauction.com/d...ous-american-frontier-sharps-model-1874-rifle

 

[Ben Lamb]

Did you purchase the Ballard new? I was a gunsmith in their shop up until they left Cody. That was a fun job!

Dad bought it around 2007 from the showroom in Cody. Its a lovely rifle.

 

[Panda Bear]

I dont think the 300 H & H, 7 x 57 and the 6.5 x 55 are obsolete calibers. They are old calibers, but I know several people who still use them and like them. The 6.5 x 55 can still be found in production rifles and rifles that wont cost a fortune. Like others I choose firearms for hunting, not collecting. If I was going to collect, it would be the type of firearms that are owned by Ben Lamb and BrentD. One of them has a double that I would love to have, but probably would not use it to hunt. I also like some of Americas so-called obsolete calibers and firearms, like the Winchester Model 71, although it cannot compete, date wise with the 6.5 x 55. There are also still users of the 280 Ross in Canada. Would I pay more for a specific rifle. Yes, not the money that it would take to buy an English or German made double rifle, but as an example. I could have purchased a new Browning BLR in the 348 caliber for less money than an old Win 71, and the Browning can be scoped ( the Win can also be scoped but not easy ), so I understand paying more for both "old" and "unusual "

I would like to ask a question. Who, and why, would someone buy a double barrel 22long rifle caliber for 25000.00. ? Why would anyone even think that by making one that someone would buy it ? There is obviously a "niche" I am not aware of and hope someone can give me a serious answer

 

[BrentD]

I would like to ask a question. Who, and why, would someone buy a double barrel 22long rifle caliber for 25000.00. ? Why would anyone even think that by making one that someone would buy it ? There is obviously a "niche" I am not aware of and hope someone can give me a serious answer

Well, I would, if I could. In fact, for a long time I had considered buying a nice but not wonderful Belgian double of some sort and having it sleeved with a pair of .22 barrels with eccentric bushings to regulate it properly. In fact, I think it would be more fun that any other type of double. I still do.

With such a rifle would be ideal for Dangerous Rabbit Hunting (c.f., Monte Python and The Holy Grail, for references), or just plain fun.

When I built my first (and I thought at the time, only) custom rifle and threw every dime at it I could, I made sure it was a .22 on the advice of a good friend. Put your money in what you can and will use the most, not what you will use the least. So, .22 it was and I never looked back. But it is a single shot for Wiley Squirrels, not a dangerous game rifle.

 

[Panda Bear]

Thank you for the reply and that is a very good reason. Makes sense, if one wanted a double rifle and you did not live in Africa and were a PH in Africa why not get a double that you would use and shoot inexpensively. ( bullets for the 22 vs 400 or 500 something ) Hunting Africa can be a once in a lifetime hunt and-or even if you hunted there ten times, vs possibly hunting rabbits, squirrels, possibly 10 times or more each year. Excellent answer, thank you

However, 25000.00 is still a bit over the top, at least for me.

 

[std7mag]

Last i checked, Holland & Holland and Westley Richards are still producing rifles and i believe shotguns.
Break out the Capital One card!!

Myself, a "factory custom" is so no where near my budget! Else Dakota, Proof Research, and Lazeroni would have gotten calls from me already.

My option is a modern used action and a new barrel.
With a call to PTG, or 4D Reamer Rental, you can make your 7mm Rem Mag into a 7mm Dakota.

My "investments" are a 1861 Harpers Ferry 3 band, and a cormemorative Win 94.
Both bought for decent money in the early 90's.
Value today?
Unknown to me. Maybe my daughter will find out after i pass and she has them.