Grazing cattle on public land

[BuzzH]

1-pointer,

I dont think its a fair comparison...but like you said, its a great deal. I also didnt apply any numbers to my post, not by accident.

Could you point me to a list of private leases that I can get for $1.35/AUM?

 

[smarandr]

AUM? Those of us who are finance dummies think this means "assets under management." What does it stand for in this context?

Carry on.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Buzz- Do you honestly believe that a direct comparison of $1.35/AUM on a federal permit to $18/AUM on private land is a fair one? Who covers maintenance fees of infrastructure on each in your experience? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's not a pretty good deal, but IMO/E it's not as disparate as just comparing the AUM fees appears on the surface.

PS- I hate to burst some folks heads, but I know of a quite a few that graze livestock on federal lands legally for FREE !!

Have you ever heard of a Welfare Rancher walking away from a $1.35 lease?

Hell, we have ass-clown Congressman Labrador introducing legislation to make Welfare Rancher leases be 20 years in order to provide "economic certainty".

I have heard of them walking away from $18-25 pasture, but never $1.35.

 

[Devil Diver Down]

Here is a piece of an article in the Billings Gazette about grazing:

“In a wilderness area, you can’t drill for oil or other commercial activities, but we allow grazing,” Feller said. “That tells you the hold on the political system that ranching has. Every other activity — mining, gas drilling, logging — is more productive on public lands, but grazing is the one that gets the pass.”

For a UofA guy, he makes a lot of sense.

AUM? Those of us who are finance dummies think this means "assets under management." What does it stand for in this context?

Carry on.

Animal Unit/Month

 

[JoseCuervo]

AUM? Those of us who are finance dummies think this means "assets under management." What does it stand for in this context?

Carry on.

All
U can
Munch per month for a cow/calf or 5 range maggots

 

[mtmiller]

The money is used on the land(or supposed to be, who knows how it is actually used), and for the most part, the ranchers do lots of upgrades for the land(watering troughs in areas that don't have good water being the biggest) which in turn is good for the wildlife.

I don't want to get too deep into these issue; though I have lots of opinions based on what I see happening on our public lands.

Brian, I am curious about your statement above. What improvement have you paid for on your public grazing lease? All I hear over here is we want this, we want that and the gov't should pay for it. Do you know how many AUM's it takes to build a mile of fence or a livestock pit?

 

[bjtc_brian]

Before Fences:

After Fences:

Amazin cattle to be able to underneath the bank and cause erosion! You're right, damned be cattle and their alien erosion techniques!

 

[bjtc_brian]

I don't want to get too deep into these issue; though I have lots of opinions based on what I see happening on our public lands.

Brian, I am curious about your statement above. What improvement have you paid for on your public grazing lease? All I hear over here is we want this, we want that and the gov't should pay for it. Do you know how many AUM's it takes to build a mile of fence or a livestock pit?

Miller,
We put a but load of time in walking in water trough's, ensuring they are running, hand digging water lines, fixing fences. Everybody had a price for time.

 

[bjtc_brian]

It is bullshit to say that "upgrades" are a good use of grazing fees when the purpose of the "upgrades" is water troughs for cattle. How about this idea, you keep the Welfare Rancher's cattle off My Public Lands, and I won't give a shit about a lack of water troughs for my deer, elk, and other game animals. I am willing to make that trade, how many Welfare Ranchers are?

Sure, as soon as you fence your elk off my private land, which by the way has to be 8' sheep fence or it isn't stopping them. Oh, and don't forget the upkeep. Better yet, I will just charge you the $18/aum per animal that is on my property. By the way, we get to use your land for a measly 3 months a year, "you elk" get to use my land 12 months a year. I think it is a deal!

 

[1_pointer]

1-pointer,

I dont think its a fair comparison...but like you said, its a great deal. I also didnt apply any numbers to my post, not by accident.

Could you point me to a list of private leases that I can get for $1.35/AUM?

I didn't think you did, but I think I know why you chose to use that comparison. I have no idea of where to find a grazing lease. Am out of that bidness... I do know that I haven't met anyone that pays for private leases to the rates being quoted here that has to fix any fence or run a generator to pump the water...

 

[1_pointer]

Do you know how many AUM's it takes to build a mile of fence or a livestock pit?

I know it takes fewer if you charge them more per AUM than the standard rate...which can be done.

 

[bjtc_brian]

Are you anti-environment?

No, I am anti-environmentalist funded sights. Why would I be anti-environment? That does me no good. And any rancher that is, doesn't use his brain. If the environment is trashed how the hell are they going to raise their cattle?

This is possibly the stupidest thing I've seen posted in a long time. By all means please post up a study or 3 that proves this.

To each his own opinion. But since you decide to belittle my quote I am done responding to you.

What should the government be doing? Taking in $1.35 and giving out $18?

No, but they aren't there to make money either. And we by no means get $1.35/AUM ours is around $13/AUM.

 

[bjtc_brian]

My family has ran cattle on private deeded acres for generations, never needing to have government welfare like the Welfare Ranchers running their cattle on My Public Lands.

My last response to something Jose says, since he can't carry on a conversation without name calling.

How did your family get its private deeded acres? All land was once a government hand out! So, since you came from a long lineage of ranchers! You are a Welfare Rancher my friend!

 

[JoseCuervo]

My last response to something Jose says, since he can't carry on a conversation without name calling.

How did your family get its private deeded acres? All land was once a government hand out! So, since you came from a long lineage of ranchers! You are a Welfare Rancher my friend!

What name calling did I do? Looks like you are the one doing the name calling.

And, my family bought private deeded land from the previous owners of the private deeded land.

Sounds like you support Welfare Ranching and using government handouts/resources while competing against people who rely on private resources to compete. I get my 'ism's" mixed up, but is that Socialism or Communism that you are supporting?

Miller,
We put a but load of time in walking in water trough's, ensuring they are running, hand digging water lines, fixing fences. Everybody had a price for time.

Why would anyone want you walking in water troughs on to My Public Lands? Why would anyone want you hand digging water lines and diverting springs and streams from where they are supposed to be?

Sure, as soon as you fence your elk off my private land, which by the way has to be 8' sheep fence or it isn't stopping them. Oh, and don't forget the upkeep. Better yet, I will just charge you the $18/aum per animal that is on my property. By the way, we get to use your land for a measly 3 months a year, "you elk" get to use my land 12 months a year. I think it is a deal!

Doesn't every game department in the west have a fund, paid for by hunters, to compensate Private Land Owners for damage done by wildlife? Looks like I already have kept up my side of the deal, now how about you getting your cattle off My Public Lands?

Amazin cattle to be able to underneath the bank and cause erosion! You're right, damned be cattle and their alien erosion techniques!

Yep, they sure can. And, that is why ranchers are getting government money to pay to install riparian fences even on their private lands, because the damage done by cattle on streams with salmon and steelhead are hindering efforts to restore endangered and threatened species.

No, I am anti-environmentalist funded sights. Why would I be anti-environment? That does me no good. And any rancher that is, doesn't use his brain. If the environment is trashed how the hell are they going to raise their cattle?

Why do you care if environmentalists fund their own "sights"? Welfare Ranchers can fund their own "sights", if they want.

Do you support the legislation being proposed to allow Welfare Ranchers to have their leases extended to 20 years?

 

[1_pointer]

Do you support the legislation being proposed to allow Welfare Ranchers to have their leases extended to 20 years?

I do. I'd like you to try to convince me of a downside to it?

 

[JoseCuervo]

I do. I'd like you to try to convince me of a downside to it?

Grazing permits and leases would outlast the Resource Management Plans that guide them, making overarching changes harder to implement.

 

[1_pointer]

Grazing permits and leases would outlast the Resource Management Plans that guide them, making overarching changes harder to implement.

There is no set expiration on an RMP. Many now in use are already over 20yrs old.

Even if the permit date lasts longer than the RMP, a new RMP decision document would supercede their earlier permit renewal decision if overarching changes were made because of the RMP analysis.

Try again...

 

[JoseCuervo]

There is no set expiration on an RMP. Many now in use are already over 20yrs old.

Even if the permit date lasts longer than the RMP, a new RMP decision document would supercede their earlier permit renewal decision if overarching changes were made because of the RMP analysis.

Try again...

You and I both know that the RMPs that are over 20 years old are the biggest problems.... You have callouses from days spent in front of a copier machine to confirm that.

 

[Lawnboy]

Having grown up with a father who was a fisheries biologist for the Forest Service(Salmon, Idaho) I can vouche for the damage that cattle do to a stream bank.

The problem he faced in the Forest Service was every guy had their own agenda and weren't willing to work very well with each other. The minerals guy wanted to mine the forest, the timber guy wanted to log every tree, the wildlife and fisheries guys tried to push what they thought was best. It was a constant battle.

What I saw was that nobody would move to the middle. The dang ranchers wouldn't rotate their cattle soon enough. They seemed to think that all was well until every blade of grass was gone. If they would just move them to another allotment before the cows turned it into the moon they would safe themselves all this bashing. Funny thing is they don't practice the same thing on "their" private land. They will rotate the cows from pasture to pasture. They aren't stupid they know what is best for the land. The difference is one is theirs and the other is a rental.

I don't want to argue but I could have him provide me with hundreds of photos of stream banks that are trashed by cattle. Way more than that off wildlife.

My good friend has cows on his place and he'll be the first too admit that they don't hardly stray from the water tanks. That's just how cattle are. Wildlife will find enough water out of a seep to keep them hydrated. Don't get me wrong if you're water tank is there they will drink but cattle are in more need of it.

 

[mtmiller]

Miller,
We put a but load of time in walking in water trough's, ensuring they are running, hand digging water lines, fixing fences. Everybody had a price for time.

Maintenance....impressive.

Would you agree that $1.35 is a joke? What is a fair price in your opinion? Any guesses on what the Federal gov't makes from permitting these grazing permits? I am not anti-grazing, but from a pure business standpoint, this is a joke....unless you are lucky enough to "own" a permit. In my area I know of no permittee that has dropped a dollar for a livestock pit or any fencing material.

I know pointer has been involved with this issue more than me and may have different opinions. I would like to hear more from him. Come on Tyler, UT must be different than northern MT.