GG vetos Sheep and Moose Lottery Option

PRO MO said:
Because there is no elephant to discuss. you think there's 5000 sheep in montana up from the low of 1000 without the help of this type of funding? its not a great outlook, but they are doing what they can, and if an auction tag is the way to maximize the funding, then i'm all for it. And if you think a raffle would out-fund an auction on sheep, you are just plain wrong. proof?
In the last 20ish years, Arizona auctions and raffles the same amount of have generated $7 million compared to $3 million from raffles. And there's typically been one auction tag, and and 1 or 2 raffle tags. double the money, half the tags...
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If my math is right, 107 ram permits issued in 1980.

archive.org

Montana big game hunting regulations : Montana. Department of Fish, Wildlife, and Parks, author : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

volumes : 28 cm
archive.org

I don't know how many this year.
 
BuzzH said:
If my math is right, 107 ram permits issued in 1980.

archive.org

Montana big game hunting regulations : Montana. Department of Fish, Wildlife, and Parks, author : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

volumes : 28 cm
archive.org

I don't know how many this year.
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If my math is right, 74 total ram tags in 2025, 107 in 1980 the first year I applied for sheep in Montana. In 1980 these auction tags didn't exist and we had significantly more opportunity.

If the rational behind these auction tags is putting more sheep on the mountain, I think by that metric it's been a miserable failure. What the auction tags have been successful doing is making sure that some people profit off our wildlife and assures that the deep pocket hunters get to cut the line. Not only cut the line, but skim the cream off the top of what wildlife we still have. Like it or not, some still believe in the value of the North American Model and don't view it as a punchline or a talking point of convenience. Because of that, they would much rather see a raffle over an auction even in spite of very low odds of drawing and in spite of the amount of money raised. The average hunter is being marginalized, stepped on, and taken advantage of. They're being asked to sacrifice the best of their wildlife and not seeing a positive ROI, in fact just the opposite. Again, like it or not, success is measured by increased opportunity and truly more sheep on the mountain.

I think there are a lot of people that are paying attention and frankly, they're seeing money going out the window while opportunity for the average hunter continues to shrink and sheep numbers continue to decline.

Those kind of "results" are not going to curry favor with those being asked to sacrifice their wildlife and opportunity. They will demand and get change, just like what happened in AZ.
 
I don't follow this as closely in Montana but Idaho has a similar trend in bighorn numbers. There was a massive recovery in bighorn sheep between the 1960's and 1980's. In the late 80's Idaho gave out over 200 bighorn sheep tags. Now we are somewhere around 90 tags. Idaho had a population of ~5,000 sheep when Idaho WSF was founded and started auctioning tags. Since then it has dropped to 2,500 and only recently risen above 3,000. This is despite all the retirements of domestic sheep grazing allotments and all those auction dollars. Somehow we had a more robust bighorn recovery in earlier decades when there were more domestics on the landscape and less funding.

Every year the WSF tag auctioneers thump their chests about how they are putting more sheep on the mountain for the rest of us. Talk about pissing on our heads and telling us it's raining. WSF is a lobbying organization to ensure auction tags remain available for their wealthy friends and donors.
 
TheTone said:
Without auction tags how else can we ensure the rich get to hunt the very best of sheep every year while putting and keeping sheep in a trophy room?
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When you boil it all down, this is what all of the auction tags have yielded.

I have tremendous respect for all of the work done to bring big game animals back from the brink, during the first half of the 20th century. There was no assurance that there would ever be a hunting season, for some species.

We all have benefited from all of the early work done to save wildlife. Our battle now is somewhat different. Then, they had habitat, but few animals. Now, we are in a continuous struggle to preserve the habitat needs for big game.
 
406dn said:
When you boil it all down, this is what all of the auction tags have yielded.

I have tremendous respect for all of the work done to bring big game animals back from the brink, during the first half of the 20th century. There was no assurance that there would ever be a hunting season, for some species.

We all have benefited from all of the early work done to save wildlife. Our battle now is somewhat different. Then, they had habitat, but few animals. Now, we are in a continuous struggle to preserve the habitat needs for big game.
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I think that to give kudos to early game management without acknowledging that they poisoned predators including raptors to the brink, in favor of bringing big game back from the brink, ignores their by far most effective tool.

Today we lack the will to favor game over predators, therefore we will never see the successful management that we saw in the first half of the 1900s. What we see now we had better learn to call success because it is our future. With or without auction tags.
Here are the goat numbers, and this was before the high quota units in the Paradise Valley area existed. This year they gave out 173 goat tags by my count.20250521_104939.jpg
 
MTGomer said:
nobody will ever see me go to bat in support of auction tags for the sake of auctioning a tag. I do support raising as much money as possible off one tag. If that means an auction, then I support that. If that means a raffle, then I support getting rid of the auction and going to a raffle.

That’s been my stance in Arizona and my frustration with the commission there is they refused to answer how they plan to replace the auction money.

There is more hunting opportunity in Arizona today because of the impact of the money that has been raised by auction tags. Some people might not like that, but that is an undeniable hard fact. I have personally built drinkers with that money and watched helicopters show up the next day to haul water after we found them dry with sheep standing around them and called it in. The money is needed, whether it be from an auction or a raffle or something else. A state with 6+ million people could just face the fact that desert bighorn sheep are a valuable species and money should be spent to conserve them without relying on the tiny fraction of the people that are hunters or want to be hunters, but that’s another topic.

If a raffle would raise more than an auction in MT, that’s what we should do, in my personal opinion.
How much does the current raffle, called the super tag, raise? Could it raise more if it was more than $5 a piece and was better marketed and did not (I believe) require conservation license to purchase it?

Montana faces a lot of challenges when it comes to bighorn sheep and they cannot all be solved with money, unfortunately.
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On the bright side in Arizona, I see WSF is running the raffle for the Rocky tag. This will allow a much bigger group to buy tickets. A few years ago the AZ Super Raffle had to change how tickets were sold…you have to be present in AZ to buy tickets. That is pretty difficult and sure does cut down the pool. As usual, great for residents but definitely limits the funds.
 
@Ben Lamb to bring the thread back.

What were your thoughts on the veto, and why? Curious to know. So its clear - i am behind the idea that, with limits, some auction tags might be better in lieu of raffle tags.

To me - the evidence of it is mixed and the experiment to maximize funding should be left to the commission. All this legislation did was empower them accordingly. Thats why i am not happy with the decision.
 
brymoore said:
When is the elephant in the room going to be discussed? All the money raised from sheep tag auctions for conservation has not increased wild sheep numbers long-term. The only benefit from the auctions is for the wealthy to be able to buy sheep tags.
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cgasner1 said:
@shootnthebull I know you guys don’t advertise the work you do but thanks I appreciate it. I didn’t realize how much work was being done till I attended the banquet this year.
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Thank you, our volunteers work hard for Montanas bighorn sheep. Sometimes the wheel of conservation works slow but it is moving!
 
Forkyfinder said:
@Ben Lamb to bring the thread back.

What were your thoughts on the veto, and why? Curious to know. So its clear - i am behind the idea that, with limits, some auction tags might be better in lieu of raffle tags.

To me - the evidence of it is mixed and the experiment to maximize funding should be left to the commission. All this legislation did was empower them accordingly. Thats why i am not happy with the decision.
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Here's my thoughts:
1.) I have a 3 day salmon and lake trout trip coming up Mon, Tues, Wed.
2.) I caught some smallies Friday.
3.) Just haven't had the drive to chase gobblers this May like I did last May. C'est la Vie.
4.) My dog has two good knees and we've spent the last 3 weeks hitting the trails, shaking off some winter doldrums and looking for new covers.
5.) I have a new 8 wt Sage that I need to use for Steelhead and Salmon as well. Which reminds me, I need a WF floating 8 wt line.

Ty did a good job summing up my thoughts on the bill.
 
Jwill said:
View attachment 372418...

View attachment 372419

So, maybe it's time to try something else.
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www.montana.edu

Montana State research team receives $4 million to study interactions between wild and domestic sheep

The collaborative project will aim to lay the groundwork for disease prevention and management work across the state.
www.montana.edu www.montana.edu

Wonder where the sheep would be if no one was trying?
 
The real issue here is not whether an auction or a raffle would raise more and the competing virtues of either. That’s a discussion for a different time though I’ve mused on it myself in this thread.

The chief problem is the lame protectionism defended by some that the commission shouldn’t be able to hear compelling cases for either and make their decision.

The spirit behind the veto of this bill is really aligned with that of a bill we saw this year in the legislature to prohibit the commission from stopping mule deer hunting in the rut. It’s a desire to strip influence from the commission and limit their options to manage our wildlife and do what’s best for them out of fear of scenarios that haven’t even yet been considered.
 
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