Frank Church Wilderness to allow chain saws......

[BuzzH]

Never did but the smartass remark is really helpful.

Detail about staff added to cover the Wilderness Act along with the other Acts you list is what I was hoping someone had access to. Stuff like that could be really helpful for people understand where the increases are used and needed. It's just too easy to say, "we need more money and people." I could easily look at the data and come to the conclusion that the FS has more than doubled in size since the Wilderness Act was enacted so there should be more than enough people to run those crosscuts, perform those ESA reviews, comply with NEPA, etc. Or I could determine that all 17,000 are fighting fires. Or I could conclude they are all administrative folks that drink a lot of coffee. I suspect the answer lies somewhere in the middle, would be great to know for sure.

The entire FS employee rolls in 1964 were 13,000 according to your numbers...there's now almost that many just assigned to fire, 11,000+.

The workload, mandates, Acts, responsibilities, demands, etc. from Congress and the public have only increased since 1964.

Budgets have been slashed while demands have increased. Something has to give, we had this discussion. Deferred maintenance has consequences, but there isn't the man power or money to do it.

You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit...

 

[WyoCoalMiner]

The entire FS employee rolls in 1964 were 13,000 according to your numbers...there's now almost that many just assigned to fire, 11,000+.

The workload, mandates, Acts, responsibilities, demands, etc. from Congress and the public have only increased since 1964.

Budgets have been slashed while demands have increased. Something has to give, we had this discussion. Deferred maintenance has consequences, but there isn't the man power or money to do it.

You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit...

Does the FS publish yearly information on number of people assigned to trail maintenance per year? Would be really curious to see what that number was in 1960, 1990, 2010, today. I was able to find some very recent information that the DOGE shit from last year has severely impacted trail crews last year and today but I am not able to find numbers by year. Wondering how today's numbers compare to the 1960's, when we cared about the resource.

 

[BuzzH]

Does the FS publish yearly information on number of people assigned to trail maintenance per year? Would be really curious to see what that number was in 1960, 1990, 2010, today. I was able to find some very recent information that the DOGE shit from last year has severely impacted trail crews last year and today but I am not able to find numbers by year. Wondering how today's numbers compare to the 1960's, when we cared about the resource.

Well, I asked the Med Bow District Ranger about the trails in a couple of the wilderness areas in the mullen fire a few weeks back. They haven't had a single trail crew person for a long time, he actually laughed when I asked about how long they haven't had a trail crew.

The BT out of Afton had 2 really old school teachers that would do about 2.5 months of trail work...that was the "trail crew" there. They quit a number of years back and as far as I know, they don't have anybody now.

Way less today...almost non-existent.

 

[TexanSam]

I don't have the time or patience to nitpick and properly quote everyone but one theme I'm noticing here is that some are making the "all or nothing" argument. Why does it have to be that way? In the days of electric chainsaws and such, why can't they make a provision to the rules saying "motors may be used for critical infrastructure maintenance by specifically FS employees and their contractors, and the scope of use must be clearly defined in writing prior to use" or something of that nature?

 

[INMT]

You'd be surprised how fast cross-cut saws can be. The biggest efficiency factor is 2 human (realistically 3) vs 1 human operation in the cross-cut vs chainsaw debate. Usually, we would have 2 people running the cross-cut, then someone with an axe limbing out in front. With a chainsaw you can do everything.

I'm curious of all the people in here how many have a lot of experience in both methods?

For trail clearing I have a few years experience with crosscuts in the Frank, Bob, and Selway Bitteroot. And 22 years experience with a chainsaw.

I’ll take a chainsaw any day. Crosscuts are fun and romantic when the downfall is light and you’re just cutting and running.

But post burn, wind events, avalanches, dropping trees, etc. they don’t compare to a chainsaw. When you have green trees upon green trees stacked upon each other with limbs everywhere, it’s next to impossible to even get two folks in place to use a crosscut.

Not to mention when you spend all season clearing trails traditionally, all other trail maintenance goes by the wayside.

Edit to add:I’m not advocating either way. Just giving my experience with both. If I still worked in wilderness, I’d have a strong opinion.

 

[Bighorner]

I don't have the time or patience to nitpick and properly quote everyone but one theme I'm noticing here is that some are making the "all or nothing" argument. Why does it have to be that way? In the days of electric chainsaws and such, why can't they make a provision to the rules saying "motors may be used for critical infrastructure maintenance by specifically FS employees and their contractors, and the scope of use must be clearly defined in writing prior to use" or something of that nature?

Because as soon as you make it administrative it takes 3 times as long and is 4 times more expensive, if it ever makes it out from under a coffee cup on someone's desk. The Med Bow has seasonal fire fighters who could spend a day or two during low fire risk times for the price of fuel and call it PT. Maybe not this year with the fuel moisture levels, but most of the seasons they could. It's better than finger pointing and complaining.

 

[F250]

With today’s government expenditures under the microscope, wouldn’t it be more fiscally responsible to hire 2 people with chainsaws vs. 8 people with hand saws ?

 

[TexanSam]

Because as soon as you make it administrative it takes 3 times as long and is 4 times more expensive, if it ever makes it out from under a coffee cup on someone's desk. The Med Bow has seasonal fire fighters who could spend a day or two during low fire risk times for the price of fuel and call it PT. Maybe not this year with the fuel moisture levels, but most of the seasons they could. It's better than finger pointing and complaining.

Okay then maybe say "chainsaws are okay, all other motors and engines require bureaucracy"

 

[BuzzH]

With today’s government expenditures under the microscope, wouldn’t it be more fiscally responsible to hire 2 people with chainsaws vs. 8 people with hand saws ?

Where does that end?

Would it be more fiscally responsible to just dump raw sewage into rivers to keep costs down?

Maybe the most fiscally responsible thing to do is just not clear trails at all and let people jump over downfall in wilderness areas.

 

[F250]

Well Buzz you are the self proclaimed expert on pretty much everything… tell us how to solve the issue.

 

[Gellar]

With today’s government expenditures under the microscope, wouldn’t it be more fiscally responsible to hire 2 people with chainsaws vs. 8 people with hand saws ?

I already tried to make that argument. Stop being a realist.

 

[mtmuley]

I already tried to make that argument. Stop being a realist.

Looks like it's easy to blame the current administration for this ruling. If it was implemented years ago when it needed to be, maybe this is a non issue. mtmuley

 

[BuzzH]

Well Buzz you are the self proclaimed expert on pretty much everything… tell us how to solve the issue.

Spend money investing in the management of our public lands, hire trail crews, fund the agencies that do the work.

I would rather see that than 13.1 million painting a pool, who knows how much for vanity projects like arches and ballrooms.

 

[BuzzH]

Looks like it's easy to blame the current administration for this ruling. If it was implemented years ago when it needed to be, maybe this is a non issue. mtmuley

We have been on the agencies ass for the last 20 years about this.

What I don't like is rolling back the rules only because of the current administration when they have a sympathetic ear.

That's crap.

 

[mtmuley]

We have been on the agencies ass for the last 20 years about this.

What I don't like is rolling back the rules only because of the current administration when they have a sympathetic ear.

That's crap.

Agreed. I remember friends and myself bidding on trail work in the 80's. So, a long time ago. What happened to that program? mtmuley

 

[sclancy27]

With today’s government expenditures under the microscope, wouldn’t it be more fiscally responsible to hire 2 people with chainsaws vs. 8 people with hand saws ?

That's akin to saying "I'm trying to lose weight so I am giving up eating apples at 30 calories a piece", instead of maybe cutting back on the 2 pizzas you eat....

 

[Gellar]

Looks like it's easy to blame the current administration for this ruling. If it was implemented years ago when it needed to be, maybe this is a non issue. mtmuley

This political football has been punted for a long time. Back and forth, back and forth. And we are going to keep punting back and forth because we can’t use common sense to come rational compromises.

 

[Gellar]

That's akin to saying "I'm trying to lose weight so I am giving up eating apples at 30 calories a piece", instead of maybe cutting back on the 2 pizzas you eat....

I always get a good laugh at people when they buy a large stuffed crust and a diet cola for themselves.

 

[BuzzH]

Agreed. I remember friends and myself bidding on trail work in the 80's. So, a long time ago. What happened to that program? mtmuley

No funding. They look for volunteers and IMO, that's a bad precedent to set.

Its asking a lot for Backcountry Horsemen, etc. to do that kind of work. They're volunteers, not hired staff.