??? for the serious deer hunters

[DKO]

I usually stay out of the pissin matches hear but i have a few questions to ask those who have been busting ithica's balls on his tracking comments.

1. If Larry himself would have made the same post would you all have said WTF ?????

2. have any of you actually ever heard the Benoits speak of their tactics in person ????? i have news for you, not everything is in their books !

3. have you ever hunted the north woods VT, ME, NH ???? not farm land woodlots im, talking about the north woods ?????? and if you have to question what that is then please do not respond !

 

[JB]

what, you want your balls busted?
sick puppy you are!

 

[Ithaca 37]

DKO, Here's some answers or comments:

#1. Yes, they would have. Who ever heard of anything so impossible as tracking a deer and reading sign? Can't be done!

#2. I doubt it very much. There's even a comment in the latest book by the author about how hard it is to get some of the info out of the Benoits. Why would they tell all their secrets in print? If it were me I'd save some for the seminars. Besides, the seminars are more like an advanced course. The basics are in the books for anyone to start practicing. Problem is, it requires time and hard work to learn tracking well enough to start being more than occasionally lucky, although just about anybody would learn lots about a specific deer if they were an observent tracker. Maybe even enough to set up an ambush in the right spot.

#3. No they haven't hunted any big north woods. If they had, they would have gotten lost and wouldn't be here to read Hunt Talk.

We have to keep in mind we're dealing with a bunch of stump sitters here who never get far from the road, or get dropped off at their blind so they can watch the bait all day. If they ever tried tracking they'd probably think the big round end of the track was the deer's toes and follow it the wrong direction. ( I actually knew a guy who did that and he didn't believe me when I told him he was going the wrong way!)

But don't discourage them from trying to bust my balls. I get a lot of laughs out of it.

 

[JB]

#3. No they haven't hunted any big north woods. If they had, they would have gotten lost and wouldn't be here to read Hunt Talk.

dont think you need to go to the big north woods just to get lost.......try some of those eastern swamps.


.....question/observation.
i have noticed something about one place i hunt.
bucks and doe are frequenting a certain spot and pissin it up.
no scrapes of course, its too early for that....but i do have pictures of doe and buck going to the same spot.....they stick their faces up in the branches like a buck does when he works a scrape.

is this possibly what makes the buck pick a certain branch to scrape under or just a place for both male and female to communicate all year?
real strong urine smell always there no matter what time of year.

 

[Dangerous Dave]

As a committed (in more ways than one) blacktail and muley hunter, the tactics and applied skills of tracking whitetails has me sort of interested in learning more about it. Iv'e never hunted the Big North Woods either, and I'm betting that I would have A LOT to learn about tracking whitetails up there. I do pretty well with blacktails around here when I attempt to track them, but it has a tendency to somewhat unbalance me mentally (simply because you've got to be crazy to hunt them in the first place). Just imagine what whitetails would do to my noggin? DD

 

[carbonarcher]

Wow, Ithaca found a friend other than BuzzH. Congrats on that.

 

[Ithaca 37]

JB, I agree, those swamps can be tricky. Especially the swamps in the North Woods.

As for your question, here's all I know. When those bucks and does are sticking their faces up in the branches over a scrape they're doing two things. The bucks will usually chew a small twig end of the branch over the scrape. It's easy to spot and if you make a fake scrape you should make sure there's a branch hanging low enough for them to chew on, even if you have to bend and tie the branch down low enough. They also rub the end of the branch around the gland in the corner of their eye. All that's for some kind of identification purposes. Usually the does just sniff the branch.

I know bucks piss on the scrape area all year long, even if they don't scrape off any dirt or leaves like with a real active scrape duing the rut. I suppose a doe would too, kinda like male and female dogs and a fire hydrant. I don't know for sure.

So I'm pretty sure your observation about it being a year round signpost is correct. Kinda like a bear tree all the bears mark or check when they go by. I think most species have signpost or scent post spots they use to keep track of who else is around. I've seen them a lot made by bobcats, beavers, muskrats, foxes and coyotes.

Dangerous Dave, I think tracking is the best way to get any game and it's the most fun for me, even if I just learn enough from the track to figure out some other way to get him. Elk are usually pretty easy to get by tracking, except the bastards run so far if ya spook them, so ya gotta be careful not to blow your first chance. Bears are pretty easy, mountain lions are real hard.

 

[Dangerous Dave]

I hear you Ithaca 37. Tracking intrests me because in the VERY rare instances (usually because of an inexperienced beginner) of having a lost deer to track, the first guy they call is me. Sometimes they drag me out of the sack in the middle of the night kicking and screaming -but if someone can't find a deer, they usually come looking for me. I guess it's because I tend to be patient. Unless the fog blows in, I normally find the buck -sometimes not. I'm a stickler for details like bent grass, snapped twigs, rubbed and bent brush, dragging tracks and slight distubances. It's a done deal if he's bleeding. I usually know the difference between buck and doe tracks, but I can still be fooled. You are correct about tracks: they prove beyond a doubt exactly how a deer is using the land it is living on.
But this whitetail stuff points out some stuff I don't know. They have a much more formalized rutting routine than western deer do and I haven't been exposed to it. I just might get around to hunting them someday, and the more I know and learn about them just might help out someday. Dave

 

[DKO]

JB, I believe your right about it being a sign post as well i also believe that deer use these markers for communication as well as herd structuring and establishing dominance through-out the year as well as during the rut and probably for alot of other unexplained reasons, I have found that rubs on same trees year after year are very much the same thing. I personally believe that these types of scrapes and rubs will define the deers core and depending on where you find these areas in geographic relation to your property may tell you exactly where and how to hunt the animals using that area. Most common mistake is finding an area that has been torn to pieces and misreading how the deer are using it and setting up to close, as with tracking an animal observing when the deer is there and why hes there is the key.

Patients is the probably the thing that gets most people in trouble be it tracking a live animal or a wounded one, also perspective, ive seen alot of guys track standing flat footed and up-right when you may see much more by putting yourself on their level see what they see and you may have a better idea of where they are going and where they may wind-up. Slowing down and observing things from a different perspective will increase your ability to track game. Determining weight, establishing time lines, sex identification, and age and knowing whether or not your following the dominant buck in the area or not takes time, patients and common sense. Tracking can be hard as hell or easy as pie there are to many variables are at play, but listening to those who have done it succesfully can also shed alot of light on the common sense factors, good luck !

Dave keep on keepin-on you obviously know most of what i have just said most people have heard it before, just take the time to apply it good luck !

ithaca, Im from maine I too grew-up near the Benoits and have been fortunate enough to hear them speak, their seminars can be very scriptive and pretty basic also a little arogant in my opinion but all in all informative i also have a personal issue with some of their ethics but thats just me ! My grandfather told me many stories very much like what you shared here but also told me how these seemingly impossible things were truley possible and not that difficult armed with the right knowledge.

experience can only be obtained by hours in the field not only during the season but all year long, sharpining tracking skills in the summer can pay huge dividends come fall.

 

[Ithaca 37]

DKO,

i also have a personal issue with some of their ethics but thats just me !

I'm curious about your issue with their ethics. Can you tell me what it is? Use the private message system if you want. I've spent a lot of time in the last 35 years defending the Benoits and telling people I know what they do isn't impossible. I remember back in the 70s and 80s when they were regularly accused of spotlighting, and just about every other illegal thing anyone could think of, to get those bucks. The hunters in Maine were especially jealous about the Benoits going up there and getting those big bucks every year when they couldn't do it themselves. They jealously fabricated all kinds of accusations. But the Benoits had always heard a lot of the same stuff from Vermont hunters, too. Seems like whenever a hunter has good success some guys accuse them of poaching.

My grandfather told me many stories very much like what you shared here but also told me how these seemingly impossible things were truley possible and not that difficult armed with the right knowledge.

You're sure right about that! It's really not all that difficult is you work at it, and especially if you have someone to learn from like your grandfather. I'd have loved to hear his stories. I bet they were really interesting.


My answer to the guys who accused them of jacklighting was usually something like this: "Big bucks like that don't stand around for jacklights. If it was that easy to get bucks like that by jacklighting, or any other poaching method, the Maine natives would be doing it all the time and getting big bucks like that every year. How come nobody in Maine can go out and jacklight bucks like that? Try riding around all nite with a spotlight and see how many big bucks you can see.

Besides, the jealous Maine hunters follow the Benoits around and try to figure out what they're doing all the time and they never see them leave the camp at night. Game wardens have even camped right next to them and kept an eye on them and have never seen them do anything but leave early in the morning and come back after hunting and sleep all nite."

Now that they have video proof of what they're doing I think that has shut up a lot of accusers. Besides, anyone who works hard enough at tracking can eventually have enough success at it to see it's not a bunch of rocket science. The Benoits have just been doing it longer and harder than anyone else and have been able to teach each other what they know and learn.

Anyone who reads all their books and watches the videos would get enough basic knowledge to start having success at tracking deer if they work at it hard enough.

I think the Benoits are so tired of hearing all the accusations they probably do come off at being arrogant when some idiot starts questioning them on something that is so basic anyone who is observant could figure it out themselves if they knew anything about woodsmanship.

Just take a look at all the uproar I caused in this topic when I mentioned a few real basic observations I made while tracking a deer! That's the kind of crap from guys who don't know anything about tracking the Benoits have to listen to all the time :

http://www.hunttalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27750

 

[DKO]

there is only one issue that i have a problem with and its my perception and opinion.....that being said, if i were to track a big buck back to his bed and find him bedded i would not intentionally kick out him just to make the shot more challenging, i would wait it out or take him bedded. Its true i wasnt there, but I have heard it enough from people that i believe. Seemed to be a standard practice amongst them, Ithaca have you heard anything like that. I havent seen it but i understand that there is a similar situation in one of the videos. O.K. flame away because i know that there are alot of guys on here that have no problems shooting running deer or head shots etc.....me personally i do not think its an ethical shot and considering the country they hunt makes it even more risky. The benoits deserve alot of credit for their abilities as hunters, as shooters well ill reserve my personal judgement, to each their own.

Fact: quote from Lanny i will not leave the truck until i know how big he is, where he is going and wether i think i can catch him or not ! so my question is : are they road hunters ???? or hunters that use roads ???? is the difference just shooting from the road ?? whats your opinion ??

 

[Ithaca 37]

From reading their books I know they shoot bucks in their beds. I can also imagine figuring you'd have a better chance of hitting a buck after he jumps outta his bed, in certain situations. I don't know anything about them jumping a buck outta his bed to make the shot more challenging. Doesn't sound like it makes sense though. You always take the first shot you're sure of and don't take chances on him getting away. It's tough enough getting a buck in sight without making it tougher and giving him a chance to get away.

So they sometimes ride roads until they find a track they like, and then follow it. That's ok with me. I know they also get out and take walks to find tracks far away from roads. If you're hunting new spots all the time, as they do, you can walk many miles without seeing a track, let alone one that is big enough.

I've read all their books and magazine articles. Anyone who does that will have most of their questions about tactics answered. I sat in Barnes and Noble for a couple evenings to read the latest book.

 

[Dangerous Dave]

Darn if it doesn't sound quite a bit like the tactics we resort to when we spot and stalk blacktails out on the coast in California. We sometimes pinpoint a distant big buck standing up within his security area in order to feed right at dusk. Then we sneak back within range before dawn and hope to catch him as he returns to his bed right at sunup -which happens less than half the time. If we don't spot him, we operate under the assumption that he returned to his bed sometime during the night, and he's busy looking out for someone sneaking up on him. Just getting within range is really a challange... and even when you finally get a glimpse of him bedded down, you usually can't shoot because his vitals are covered up. I've had a buck stare me down for 4 hours from across a canyon before, and all I could see were his horns and the top of his head surrounded by brush 300 yards away. The next move belongs to the deer.
I won't try to talk anyone who isn't comfortable with shooting deer on the run to try it anytime soon, but it really becomes nessasary sooner or later out here in the open-country west. But if that deer makes up his mind and finally busts out of his security cover, you had better have an answer to trump his ace. A few days (or weeks) shooting at downhill rolling tire targets will have anyone dialed in sooner or later, and it's fairly close to wing shooting ducks. Unless the buck runs through thick cover -guess what?- his vitals are usually no longer covered up and he makes a much better target. We don't have tracking snow during our season, but tracks at watering areas and elsewhere always catch my eye.
I guess the Benoits fall under the same scrunity some famous western hunters become embroiled in and will constantly have other folks calling them poachers. A case in point is the ongoing Kirt Darner drama -I don't know the man, nor can I vouch for his ethics -I don't have all the facts- but there is little to doubt concerning his ability to hunt big mule deer back in the day. I think his downfall began when people became jealous of his accomplishments, started setting him up and prodding him to aquire bigger and better bucks. He also became very arrogant and indignant which alienated him even further. It's a comment about our culture that says: becoming proficient with a certain skill fans the flames of wrath in others, and can doom the talented ones to hell. Dave