Fixing Western Hunting

[Nick87]

I put a lot of thought into moving before I did.

One of the considerations was just chasing bigger $$$ and just buy expensive hunts and tags.

Not my style though, so chose less money but more access to wildlife via living in a state with the opportunity I wanted, and proximity for easier travel and less expense to neighboring states I would apply for.

What I didn't do, and would never expect a neighboring state to do, is sacrifice their opportunity to make things easier for me as a NR. Won't happen and if I think their system is so bad, I'll just choose not to apply. Exactly what I did with New Mexico.

Had I been out there hunting or visiting before I was established here. I think taking the pay cut would have been no problem or at least looking into another career. Little harder when you've established yourself. Oh well, can't have it all.

 

[BuzzH]

Had I been out there hunting or visiting before I was established here. I think taking the pay cut would have been no problem or at least looking into another career. Little harder when you've established yourself. Oh well, can't have it all.

Don't blame you, it's tough to leave what you know for largely what you don't. In particular if you're comfortable where you're at.

I regret my decision to move here from time to time.

 

[Nick87]

Brings me to a total random point not related to this thread at all. But I will definitely encourage my kids to do a little traveling before they pick a career or making a life for themselves. Big world out there that I wish I'd of known more about at 18 years old. (When I knew everything)

 

[Elky Welky]

Hunting and fishing were the reasons I moved back to MT after 8 years studying elsewhere. And it was and continues to be a massive pay cut, with politics moving far away from the more reasonable MT of my youth, and a pretty abysmal dating scene. There may be plenty of fish, but they are swimming in a different sea. I also won't be buying a home anytime soon.

On the plus side, that means the disposable income I do have gets entirely devoted 100% to hunting and fishing. On the minus, the disposable time I have gets almost entirely devoted 100% for advocating for hunting and fishing.

 

[406dn]

Man, some of you guys never save any face in these "discussions".

It's also a bit interesting how many people are requesting that more people move to their state to capitalize on their wildlife, I don't believe a single one of you in that regard.

I am absolutely sincere when I make that statement. Since that is exactly what I did forty plus years ago, it would be hypocritical of me to tell some one else to stay the hell out.

 

[perma]

Brings me to a total random point not related to this thread at all. But I will definitely encourage my kids to do a little traveling before they pick a career or making a life for themselves. Big world out there that I wish I'd of known more about at 18 years old. (When I knew everything)

That's what I did. Going from CO to MI was a clear awakening that I am not meant for the midwest.

I'm sure there are those that are the exact opposite and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[SAJ-99]

Thank you so much for taking the time and giving this post some thought. Even while I'm glad that a suggestion like this could lead to opportunities for me, there's a strong socialist vibe about it.

As opposed to a capitalist vibe? You really want that?

 

[Elky Welky]

As opposed to a capitalist vibe? You really want that?

@Farmer20 boy do I have a website for you:

https://www.perc.org/

 

[TOGIE]

see am i the only that even sorta considers moving to the midwest for awesome hunting opportunities knowing that I could still hunt colorado every year as a nonresident and every other western state just as often as i already do?

 

[Elky Welky]

see am i the only that even sorta considers moving to the midwest for awesome hunting opportunities knowing that I could still hunt colorado every year as a nonresident and every other western state just as often as i already do?

No, you're not alone. But then I remember if I can't see mountains daily that I will probably go insane, as I almost did when I lived in North Dakota.

 

[TOGIE]

No, you're not alone. But then I remember if I can't see mountains daily that I will probably go insane, as I almost did when I lived in North Dakota.

exactly why we won't. i couldn't leave my rocky mountains, i just couldn't. i'm just particularly jaded by the utter insanity that is the shitfest of living on the front range of colorado, which not every western resident deals with on a scale like the front range.

but i'm more serious about the idea of moving to the midwest than even i would like to admit. we'd just move up into a rural colorado mountain town before doing something that drastic. easier said than done though.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

I don’t want to criticize anyone’s response, but maybe if you think the ideas stink, through out some different ideas.

I think the rhetorical challenge you're seeing play out in responses is that you didn't start by clearly identifying the problems that you perceive. You wrote a list of solutions that assume various but defined issues. People are not at all in agreement on those issues.

 

[Nameless Range]

I appreciate the OP trying to come up with some ideas. That said, when it comes to the allocation of tags - regardless of herd size, drought, land ownership, etc - for me, any path forward needs to not only give primacy to residents - it needs to be directed by them. For one, because that is quite literally the law of the land. For two, discussions of "worthiness" are just black holes, and state citizenship is the most sensible metric on which to base the beneficiary/Trust relationship.

If we were going to discuss worthiness around land ownership/public land/federal monies spent - I just think that though it is a part of the story, it really is a small part of it. The biggest part of it happens to be the hardest part to quantify - and that is the life energies of residents, and in particular locals, to the geographies in which we hunt. Though I could, I don't suppose I should say much more because, like I said, it's a black hole.

 

[Elky Welky]

exactly why we won't. i couldn't leave my rocky mountains, i just couldn't. i'm just particularly jaded by the utter insanity that is the shitfest of living on the front range of colorado, which not every western resident deals with on a scale like the front range.

but i'm more serious about the idea of moving to the midwest than even i would like to admit. we'd just move up into a rural colorado mountain town before doing something that drastic. easier said than done though.

 

[Irrelevant]

Of course I don't want 100K hunters to move to WY tomorrow, but if they want to bad enough there's not one single thing stopping them.

Some people want to re-write the rules to suit their hobbies, which is also their prerogative, it just isn't gonna happen. I want some things that I can't have too, that's life.

That's exactly what I did. I wanted better hunting and made a sacrifice to make that happen by moving to a state with great hunting. The reason for the entitled NR is because they don't want to sacrifice anything to live where they like to hunt.

I miss out on a lot of stuff by choosing to live here.

It's that simple, and yes, living in a State like Wyoming is a sacrifice for all kinds of reason. A big one being earning potential. Living a long way from friends and family for another. I could go on and on. Anyone that thinks living year around here is some great thing, well come on, what are you waiting for? Hunting here is either important enough to make the sacrifice or they can stay in the safety of the bubble they choose to live in.

I didn't make the sacrifices I did to watch opportunity be taken away from Residents just because a NR thinks they're entitled to more of my State's wildlife. They aren't and I'll do all I can to see it doesn't happen. The only thing a NR is entitled to is singing the blues, which some do quite well.

I know where you guys are coming from and I don't disagree. But you look at MT, Boise, Salt Lake... do you really want people moving to your State? At some point they're going to come, guaranteed. People will always flock to the unspoiled beautiful places. Once they ruin ID and MT, better look out. 100k would just be the tip, and not just for a sec. The wind will only keep so many out for so long.

I live in an area that I picked for certain reasons, not necessarily hunting, but access to incredibly beautiful wild places. I could be making more working in Puget Sound or Portland. Would I love to gate keep and keep the access to these resources to myself? Damn straight I would. By god I made sacrifices to live here, I want to maximize these benefits. But I don't get to, the regulatory structure doesn't allow me to keep King county out of my trailheads, away from my alpine lakes, out of my chukar hills. I'm not saying I would trade it, there are lots of other side benefits I get for living here, but I also recognize my own selfishness. Every day I hope something happens on the pass that physically prevents people from coming here. There no altruism on either side of this coin.

 

[perma]

I know where you guys are coming from and I don't disagree. But you look at MT, Boise, Salt Lake... do you really want people moving to your State? At some point they're going to come, guaranteed. People will always flock to the unspoiled beautiful places. Once they ruin ID and MT, better look out. 100k would just be the tip, and not just for a sec. The wind will only keep so many out for so long.

I live in an area that I picked for certain reasons, not necessarily hunting, but access to incredibly beautiful wild places. I could be making more working in Puget Sound or Portland. Would I love to gate keep and keep the access to these resources to myself? Damn straight I would. By god I made sacrifices to live here, I want to maximize these benefits. But I don't get to, the regulatory structure doesn't allow me to keep King county out of my trailheads, away from my alpine lakes, out of my chukar hills. I'm not saying I would trade it, there are lots of other side benefits I get for living here, but I also recognize my own selfishness. Every day I hope something happens on the pass that physically prevents people from coming here. There no altruism on either side of this coin.

I don’t doubt that inevitably they will come to WY but people in general (non hunters specifically) may not be willing to take the risk to move here (at least I think). Buzz is right, you really have to commit to sacrificing to live here. Take hunting out of the picture for a second; the state is beautiful but it can really be watered down by poor weather, lack of a stronger economy or any other social activities outside of outdoor recreation. The most excitement Cheyenne gets is Frontier days.

 

[406dn]

We are all born in a time and place. You can't change one of them, at all. Montana and Idaho will be much different in fifty years. I'll be long dead, it won't happen in my time. If possible, I'd have hunters fifty years from now, enjoy the same hunting that I've enjoyed these last forty years. But, it will be a different time, a different circumstance.

I would doubt that resident elk tags remain freely available over the counter. I'd like to be wrong about that, but if you add another 500k people, something will have to give. One thing I realized from drawing my goat, and moose tags is that a limited draw hunt offers more solitude than a general season hunt does. That elbow room is a wonderful thing to have on a hunt. Maybe when moving to limited draw for most hunting, that is something that could be improved.

I mentioned earlier that imo the erosion of the North American model of game management is the biggest threat I see for future hunters of middle class means. It could easily slip away. It won't happen appreciably in my remaining years, but if I was thirty, it would worry me quite a bit.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

I know where you guys are coming from and I don't disagree. But you look at MT, Boise, Salt Lake... do you really want people moving to your State? At some point they're going to come, guaranteed. People will always flock to the unspoiled beautiful places. Once they ruin ID and MT, better look out. 100k would just be the tip, and not just for a sec. The wind will only keep so many out for so long.

I live in an area that I picked for certain reasons, not necessarily hunting, but access to incredibly beautiful wild places. I could be making more working in Puget Sound or Portland. Would I love to gate keep and keep the access to these resources to myself? Damn straight I would. By god I made sacrifices to live here, I want to maximize these benefits. But I don't get to, the regulatory structure doesn't allow me to keep King county out of my trailheads, away from my alpine lakes, out of my chukar hills. I'm not saying I would trade it, there are lots of other side benefits I get for living here, but I also recognize my own selfishness. Every day I hope something happens on the pass that physically prevents people from coming here. There no altruism on either side of this coin.

I really don't give it much thought, other than in theory and in passing, because there's nothing I could do about it. I assume it will happen to the areas I hunt and recreate, and to some extent it has. If and when that happens I'll just have to decide if it's worth going somewhere else or not. It'll be alright either way, it's not life and death.

All that said, WY has some barriers to sustained entry. Covid was a very real test of the specific pressures that can and did move people around to less developed areas and towns. I don't believe that WY caught the kind of bullet that Idaho, Montana, Colorado, and Utah did on that. I'm sure someone has charts. @AvidIndoorsman that's your queue.

 

[Irrelevant]

I don’t doubt that inevitably they will come to WY but people in general (non hunters specifically) may not be willing to take the risk to move here (at least I think). Buzz is right, you really have to commit to sacrificing to live here. Take hunting out of the picture for a second; the state is beautiful but it can really be watered down by poor weather, lack of a stronger economy or any other social activities outside of outdoor recreation. The most excitement Cheyenne gets is Frontier days.

For now. There are a lot of previously really shitty places to live that have exploded, for one reason or another, it just takes time.

There ain't a whole lot of prettier places in this country than WY

 

[Elky Welky]

The draw of "Home" is absolutely incredible. I would love to know, statistically, how many people are able to just up and leave and don't feel that connected to the world they grew up in. I used to get so insanely homesick for MT, it was painful. And there are even times I feel that pain when I'm hiking around in some of my favorite spots, because there's just something so deeply rooted in the place for me. I don't know how to describe it.

I would say, having lived in multiple cities across the state, that the size of what I consider "home" keeps getting bigger. Whereas having been born in Bozeman and that being the city where my father's family is from, it is actually one of the places I feel the least at home, because the culture there is so shockingly different than what it was and what the rest of Montana is.

Even with all the changes statewide, the covid rush of hunters, the Yellowstone TV Show wannabees, and carpetbaggers moving in and running for political offices... even with a 50% reduction in pay, bad dating scene, etc... I can't give it up.

Telling someone to just move here is asking them to overcome that feeling, and I don't know how anyone could if they loved their home as much as I love mine.

Or maybe it's just because Montana is that awesome...