Fin's 2016 Elk Strategy
- Thread starter Big Fin
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Zim
Well-known member
If folks were realistic, they wouldn't have 20 CO points.
I never would have been close to 20, but that plan got derailed when Colorado "changed" the rules to lower NR quotas in units taking more than 5 resident points to draw or whatever. That changed everything, dumping me into point pool purgatory. Now I just want out.
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Lv2hnt
Well-known member
All I know is that the human population of Arizona continues to grow like nobody's business. That while the animal population remains rather static (which means available tag numbers don't increase) in a state with a limited amount of good elk habitat in a desert state.
Throw in George Taulman years ago and things got complicated.
Ariz. G&F is looked to by agencies from across the U.S. The bonus point system here has worked for the most part. Unfortunately, the max pool aspect has become more of a preference point system, as Fin has already mentioned, and not remained the more generic bonus point system.
Admittedly, non-residents with max points just took it in the shorts. But the thing is, they aren't guaranteed "their" tag even with max points (just as residents with max points aren't). I'm sure this change wasn't made by G&F without quite a bit of cussin' and discussin' --- in the end, more non-residents may actually be hunting in Arizona each year (if they do a little thinking).
I can tell you this, the hunt experience in Arizona's "premier" units has changed a lot in the last 10-15 years (more guides, also "posses" in those units). If you play better odds, you'll hunt more often (and you can find 350-plus bulls in every unit, with a few 375-400+ sprinkled in --- I've seen them).
As an FYI, you pay a price as a resident Arizona hunter too --- it took me over 30 years to draw a desert sheep tag; it's been over 20 years since my last pronghorn tag; my last elk tag was in 2010 (and I've never applied for units 1 or 9). Just so you know ...
Throw in George Taulman years ago and things got complicated.
Ariz. G&F is looked to by agencies from across the U.S. The bonus point system here has worked for the most part. Unfortunately, the max pool aspect has become more of a preference point system, as Fin has already mentioned, and not remained the more generic bonus point system.
Admittedly, non-residents with max points just took it in the shorts. But the thing is, they aren't guaranteed "their" tag even with max points (just as residents with max points aren't). I'm sure this change wasn't made by G&F without quite a bit of cussin' and discussin' --- in the end, more non-residents may actually be hunting in Arizona each year (if they do a little thinking).
I can tell you this, the hunt experience in Arizona's "premier" units has changed a lot in the last 10-15 years (more guides, also "posses" in those units). If you play better odds, you'll hunt more often (and you can find 350-plus bulls in every unit, with a few 375-400+ sprinkled in --- I've seen them).
As an FYI, you pay a price as a resident Arizona hunter too --- it took me over 30 years to draw a desert sheep tag; it's been over 20 years since my last pronghorn tag; my last elk tag was in 2010 (and I've never applied for units 1 or 9). Just so you know ...
havgunwilltravel
Active member
Hi mate,
Yes from Melbourne in oz.
I guess there is always two ways to look at things, the top tier point holders have been disadvantaged in az, but at least the lower point holders can have some hope that maybe they will draw a strip / kaibab tag or one of the premium early rut rifle/archery tags. And to be honest with you I like the fact that everybody can have a little skin in the game with a chance of drawing, even if it is very low.
Low odds are better then no odds and give people hope. New hunters applying will benefit, maybe my two sons will also benefit one day and maybe it will take me a few extra years to draw quality tags. So be it, I got plenty of other animals in many regions to go hunt self guided and if people really want to apply in a fair system then they should look no further then Idaho.
I'll keep chipping away for a couple more years in Wyoming, bit tricky to work out what to do there and Utah I'm sitting on the fence with an archery hunt or hold off and try for rifle rut hunt now I'm in pretty deep.
I can understand your frustration, and see your valid points, but perhaps looking at the big picture from nr view point AZ is now a fairer state for all non resident applicants, not just the top level point holders. It should encourage more people to apply, but some of the guys at the top banking points will probably be disappointed their odds have slightly lowered.
Guess it's hard to keep everybody happy eh.
Duck-Slayer
Well-known member
Pinecricker
New member
I'm an OTC elk hunter and always will be, but I find the discussion on drawings interesting. One question I have, it seems that the perception is that if a particular hunt has terrible drawing odds, then it must be a super high quality hunt?
I'm unfamiliar with how other states are managed, but here in Idaho (and this is according to our latest elk plan) controlled hunts aren't necessarily managed to produce high age class bulls or bucks (though that model may be phased in over time). Mostly, it just means there are a limited number of animals in those hunt areas, along with a large number of hunters that want to hunt there. Limiting the number of tags is simply a means to keep hunter driven mortality low enough to maintain population objectives. Sure you may have lower hunter density, but you'll also have lower animal densities, so it seems like a wash.
As I said, I don't know how other states work. Are they actively managed for high age classes, etc? Or is it just a case of the perception that high demand means high quality? Do game departments in these states publish what their management objectives for each hunt area are?
I sure hope the concept doesn't catch on here in Idaho. I can't image a worse fate than having to draw for tags every year. There has been some talk of IDFG creating "high quality" controlled hunts.To me it almost raises an ethical question, in that its sort of like asking the game department to stack the odds of success in your favor, rather than just looking at a sustainable harvest. On the flip side, who doesn't want to hunt in a place with lower hunter densities.
The concept of controlled hunts also begs the question, as the number of hunters continues to increase, will "lottery" based hunting eventually become the norm? Is that what we want? Does it make sense to try to expand the number of hunters if that's where it leads?
I'm unfamiliar with how other states are managed, but here in Idaho (and this is according to our latest elk plan) controlled hunts aren't necessarily managed to produce high age class bulls or bucks (though that model may be phased in over time). Mostly, it just means there are a limited number of animals in those hunt areas, along with a large number of hunters that want to hunt there. Limiting the number of tags is simply a means to keep hunter driven mortality low enough to maintain population objectives. Sure you may have lower hunter density, but you'll also have lower animal densities, so it seems like a wash.
As I said, I don't know how other states work. Are they actively managed for high age classes, etc? Or is it just a case of the perception that high demand means high quality? Do game departments in these states publish what their management objectives for each hunt area are?
I sure hope the concept doesn't catch on here in Idaho. I can't image a worse fate than having to draw for tags every year. There has been some talk of IDFG creating "high quality" controlled hunts.To me it almost raises an ethical question, in that its sort of like asking the game department to stack the odds of success in your favor, rather than just looking at a sustainable harvest. On the flip side, who doesn't want to hunt in a place with lower hunter densities.
The concept of controlled hunts also begs the question, as the number of hunters continues to increase, will "lottery" based hunting eventually become the norm? Is that what we want? Does it make sense to try to expand the number of hunters if that's where it leads?
Kiwi
Well-known member
Havegunwilltravel, that's a lot of points you're got! Did you get the USA hunting bug while living in Oz? Or did you spend time there? I sure wish I had started buying points earlier to open up more options.
TheDudeAbides
Well-known member
When you say age classes Utah comes to mind.
Utah does manage on age classifications on elk. They control the elk numbers with cow and spike tags and only give out a select number of any bull tags in those units. Some units are managed for 4.5, 5.5, 6.5, and 7.5 age class of bulls.
Utah has a pretty fair draw system for residents 50% go to the max point holders and 50% go to the bonus point lottery draw.
For non residents it is the same system, but there are only 1 or 2 tags available for most units with a weapon type. Which doesn't do much for anyone with any amount of points other than the max point holder in a 2 permit weapon type in a Utah. There isn't a system out there that would fix 200 people applying for 2 tags.
Zim
Well-known member
Getting the corrupt SFW to put 500+ auction and raffle tags back into the regular draw where they came from would be a good start.
TheDudeAbides
Well-known member
Yes, that would be a good start.
Though, that would not help much there are around 500,000 people from applying for points or the 5000 tags a year.
The current system or even a lottery system would not help with 5,500 or 6,000 tags with 500,000 people applying for tags or points.
The pursuit of the record books has made Utah what it is, a trophy state. The popularity of the permits exceeds the number of permits that are available.
devon deer
Well-known member
My 2016 strategy, same as 2014, get tag, jump on plane, fly across Atlantic, find Montana Elk, shoot Elk, jump on plane, fly back across Atlantic, save up for 2018!
Cheers
Richard
ps, bet it doesn't work like that this year!
Cheers
Richard
ps, bet it doesn't work like that this year!
I forgot about this post. Wyoming is done.
Uncle Larry has been applied for a unit that his 7 points would have assured him a tag last year. But, each year, it changes dramatically, so who knows.
I looked at units with the best random odds, given I have 0 points. Not a chance I will draw in the PP round, so I have to hope I get lucky and beat the 12% odds that this unit has had over the last five years for the Special Random draw. A lot of my luck will depend on where they set the tag numbers.
For Matthew, it is a points only deal, allowing him to stay at max point level until such time his schedule allows him to hunt Wyoming elk.
We are posting a video tomorrow about the Wyoming system. I had hoped to get it up last week, but with SHOT Show and a destroyed Hunt Talk data base last week, it will be up tomorrow. Better late than never.
On to Arizona.
Lv2hnt
Well-known member
Good luck to all applying in Arizona --- the deadline is approaching ...
I'm sort of in a pickle. I'm narrowing my options down between Colorado and Montana.
I've lived in Colorado the past 5 years. After my commitment to the Air Force ended in early 2015, my wife and I made a decision to move out east to her hometown in Missouri. She's definitely got a way of persuading me, but needless to say I went kicking and screaming. Colorado was the best place in the world to me, and I miss it dearly. I made a deal with my wife allowing me to return west every year and hunt for 14 days. Well, I'm capitalizing on her promise. Because non-resident tags are similar in cost, I'm attempting to hunt other states instead of Colorado. Now I do have 2 points and am seriously considering a unit I can draw for a 1st season rifle tag in CO. Should I chose that 2 point 5 day hunt over a longer archery general hunt in Montana?
I've got a few questions on applying as a non-resident in Montana. After you purchase your general tag (w/o deer, elk only) and apply for a limited entry area, how much of that 850$ can you get back if you're unsuccessful at drawing that limited tag? Any way you can just purchase a bonus point? I can't seem to find a map on Montana's DOW website that highlights general units, any ideas where I can find it?
As you can tell, I've been a custom to the preference point system in CO. Can y'all help educate a nubbie on the bonus point system in Montana? I'd appreciate it.
I'm also applying for Nevada bonus points, and I'm going to throw 50$ at a Wyoming preference point. I'm continuing to apply for sheep and deer preference point in CO as well.
I've lived in Colorado the past 5 years. After my commitment to the Air Force ended in early 2015, my wife and I made a decision to move out east to her hometown in Missouri. She's definitely got a way of persuading me, but needless to say I went kicking and screaming. Colorado was the best place in the world to me, and I miss it dearly. I made a deal with my wife allowing me to return west every year and hunt for 14 days. Well, I'm capitalizing on her promise. Because non-resident tags are similar in cost, I'm attempting to hunt other states instead of Colorado. Now I do have 2 points and am seriously considering a unit I can draw for a 1st season rifle tag in CO. Should I chose that 2 point 5 day hunt over a longer archery general hunt in Montana?
I've got a few questions on applying as a non-resident in Montana. After you purchase your general tag (w/o deer, elk only) and apply for a limited entry area, how much of that 850$ can you get back if you're unsuccessful at drawing that limited tag? Any way you can just purchase a bonus point? I can't seem to find a map on Montana's DOW website that highlights general units, any ideas where I can find it?
As you can tell, I've been a custom to the preference point system in CO. Can y'all help educate a nubbie on the bonus point system in Montana? I'd appreciate it.
I'm also applying for Nevada bonus points, and I'm going to throw 50$ at a Wyoming preference point. I'm continuing to apply for sheep and deer preference point in CO as well.
IlliniFIre
Member
So I almost filled out an app for NM a couple nights ago. The main reason I didn't was what if I drew. I've watched the elk talk episodes, listened to the HuntTalk podcast, read Rinella;s book, but I still don't think I understand the system. From what I can tell it would be $13 to apply then obviously more for the tag if drawn. I'm a noob at hunting even whitetail's in the midwest so elk would be totally foreign really is why I'm so confused.
In NM, you will have to purchase a $65 refundable license, plus pay for the tag fee upfront (refunded if not drawn), which depending upon what unit you apply for, would be as high as $786, plus you $13 non-refundable application fee.
hunt1up
Active member
A buddy and I are in on WY with 5.5 points (my 5, his 6). We're trying to burn those up before things get ugly. I'll just hunt general or 1-3 point units after those are gone.
The backup plan will be to get out of the CO point mess.
The backup to the backup will be to give MT a try.
The backup plan will be to get out of the CO point mess.
The backup to the backup will be to give MT a try.
Brn2hnt
Member
Long story short, I shot my first and best bull in 2012. One of my memories of my father was him coming home from an elk hunt fairly somber. When I asked why, he said he knew that he had just shot the biggest bull of his life, and no other bull would live up to that years. After shooting a bull that his fit inside of, I made a decision that I wouldn't let that happen to me. So I have no more than 1 pt in any state, but I'm starting to build in nv for a booner, but I figure I need practice, so I still want to hunt every year. Plus I'd go crazy if I didn't hunt!
I have about a 5 yr rotation that I'm trying to start. My goals are 2 elk hunts and 2 mule deer hunts per year. My plan for this year is:
AZ : put in for some high brow units for the late elk hunt, fully expecting to just add a pp
NV: start building pts for elk, keep archery hunt in rubies as a potential solid deer option
WY: put in for a general elk tag, with 1 pt I probably won't draw but if I do so much the better. For deer I have one pt as well, probably pick a general region with a 50-50 chance to draw.
MT: I've got to learn some more about the archery tags in units with no general rifle tags, but will likely put that off and just start building pts
CO: put in for pts for elk with 3rd season as the fall back. Put in for 3rd season deer as well but with no pts likely just a pt.
ID: swing for the fence in the draw, maybe hunt otc elk, for sure coming for deer. I have unfinished business on the mountain there.
NM: Swing for the fence.
OR: mule deer tag is a 100% draw as well as 3 month cow season, will put in but only buy the tags if the schedule works out.
I have about a 5 yr rotation that I'm trying to start. My goals are 2 elk hunts and 2 mule deer hunts per year. My plan for this year is:
AZ : put in for some high brow units for the late elk hunt, fully expecting to just add a pp
NV: start building pts for elk, keep archery hunt in rubies as a potential solid deer option
WY: put in for a general elk tag, with 1 pt I probably won't draw but if I do so much the better. For deer I have one pt as well, probably pick a general region with a 50-50 chance to draw.
MT: I've got to learn some more about the archery tags in units with no general rifle tags, but will likely put that off and just start building pts
CO: put in for pts for elk with 3rd season as the fall back. Put in for 3rd season deer as well but with no pts likely just a pt.
ID: swing for the fence in the draw, maybe hunt otc elk, for sure coming for deer. I have unfinished business on the mountain there.
NM: Swing for the fence.
OR: mule deer tag is a 100% draw as well as 3 month cow season, will put in but only buy the tags if the schedule works out.
Zim
Well-known member
Well Colorado deer backdoor is open now, so elk will be next, perhaps 5/24. Guess we'll find out soon if either of us got lucky for a unit 61 archery tag. I'd be pleased if even just one or two tags drop down to the 19 point pool. Kind of expecting none will.
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