Energy bill info

[JoseCuervo]

Originally posted by Tom:
[QB
Grass grows in the roads, elk eat that, that's improved habitat, isn't it? I want something better than this to read, I'm not buying it, so far. [/QB]

Perhaps one of the most stupid statements I have ever read, and given all that I have read from Ten Beers, that says alot....

Let me think.... Corn comes out of an automatic feeder, Whitetails eat the feed, therefore, automatic feeders must be improved habitat....

I for one am glad you live in Texas, where protecting and using Public Lands is not required.

 

[Oak]

C'mon Elkgunner, that's why Ten Bears' grizzly was in the road...it was attracted to the elk eating the grass between the tracks. Don't you understand? It's a very intricate food web, woven around roads.

Oak

 

[JoseCuervo]

Oak,

Do you think if Ten and Tom had a conversation, either one of them would understand the other one??? I just have this picture of Ten driving down the road on his ATV with his pet Grizzly, and getting stuck by all of Tom's Elk in the middle of the road...

Could you imagine watching a hidden video of the conversation? That would be hilarious to watch...

 

[Tom]

I did an internet search, that's where I got the quote from. Increasing vulnerability is a pretty small problem. I was hoping you guys, who are supposed to be the experts, would give me the best study, or at least a good one. I'm thinking if you could communicate the magnitude of the problem you perceive to me, you could communicate it to someone like that Mont. Senator better. Kerasote couldn't even communicate with that senator, is what it read like to me. That's a problem.

You say there's science, then you say you find it, if I ask a question. If I was a senator, I'd say to hell with your argument also if that's all you did.

Your examples of economic feasibility are interesting and communicative and I thank you for them. The 80%-20% issue seems like something to work with. The roads don't take 80%, hence, development could still be managed, to get the gas and oil and still protect a lot of habitat. It seems pretty obvious as a counter argument to the problem of increased vunerability.

Are you saying there is research that shows elk can't live in cover near roads that are protected roads? Elk live in Yellowstone and its got roads, and they graize near them just fine.

Sure, the wildlife suffer, but not much, with the protected roads and controlled access. Isn't that what the non-wildlife people are thinking. How do you convince them otherwise?

Got any data? Is that what you tell a senator, go find it? You won't get anywhere that way.

I'll search for more, but I hope you guys become more communicative too. The problem does not seem big. What seems big about it to you, anything? You mentioned one dead bird in oil, that's a problem. When I compare it to all the oil and/or gas I imagine being pumped from that sight, when I consider we produce only 75% of the energy we use, the one dead bird seems like a small problem. Birds die anyway. You think there is a good study that shows the problem is big?

 

[1_pointer]

miller- I think Tonapah, NV or Hanksville, UT would be MUCH worse! The range con re-start is handing out caribou grazing permits in Nome, Ak!! I'm thinking the wifey would have serious problems with that move!!!

Tom- I don't think the actual ground used for the road is the problem, but the fragmentation of the habitat. A buffer of less use occurs around the road, thus taking 'more' habitat available away. Though it's still there, its lack of use functionally removes it from being habitat. I don't think using Yellowstone as a control for road/animal use is a good one.

 

[mtmiller]

Alright, good conversation, but let's play nice. No demoralization to those that are at least interested in the topic.

By the way, dumb-ass miller doesn't know how to spell "loses".

later all...

 

[Tom]

OK, I know the actual road is a loss of habitat, but I know wildlife around here can be in higher densities on roadside too, compared to neighboring ranchland off the road. Here is a link where Utah has an active road habitat management/improvement program.
http://www.wildlife.utah.gov/habitat/roadside.html

I'm thinking of a two rut truck road to an oil or gas pump, not a highway. Does that type of road cause a problem with fragmentation? That road I"m thinking of has much less use than a Yellowstone road where elk cross and graze nearby. That Yellowstone road is a good example of a road that does not seem to be much of a problem, is it?

 

[1_pointer]

Yes, even two-tracks have been shown to have a negative impact on use of areas by elk and mule deer. Whitetails by comparison have been observed using habitat closer to areas of human activity. I don't think Yellowstone is a good example is it's not just the road, but the activities that accompany it. If hunting or similar activities was to occur off those same roads in Yellowstone I'd bet you'd see a drastic change in use patterns.

 

[Tom]

So, its the hunting pressure, not the roads, that drives the elk away, that's the point. Less pressure means more elk near roads, Yellowstone helps make that point.

How negative of an impact? Pretty trivial, pretty big, doesn't matter to you?

I like the idea of very restricted road use for the oil and gas and protection of wildlife by making the road minimal and the use of it minimal.

 

[1_pointer]

It does matter to me, and I believe its bigger than trivial. Much of the reason I'm for more/bigger roadless areas. I have yet to hear of good reason to not have roadless areas.

I like the idea of very restricted road use for the oil and gas and protection of wildlife by making the road minimal and the use of it minimal.

I agree.

 

[Nut]

Roads make it easier to road hunt from.

 

[ELKCHSR]

I say....Bring on the cheeper fuel...

 

[Tom]

I would like to read the two track road impact study if you know where I can get it. Maybe road makers, even if they're two track, should be required to plant something along the edge to counter the "negative" impact with something positive.

 

[Oak]

What good is it to "plant something along the edge" if the animals won't utilize it?

Oak

 

[1_pointer]

Tom- You'll have to run a search. I came acrossed it about 2mos. ago and didn't find it in a quick search just now.