Elk survey for the northern Yellowstone
- Thread starter Bambistew
- Start date
The true hidden agenda of the greenies is starting to be seen on the wolves side of this debate. The number of human killed elk will decrease now that the wolves are starting to fill that area...Only time will tell, but with the abundance of game in the lowere 48 since management has been the norm, the number of predators will only get larger..Lets delist the suckers and put them on the hunted list also..Good article, no matter who reads what into it...
Elkhunter
New member
Yes it is a good article and one can read a lot into it. It is very vague.
No doubt the wolf has affected the elk herds.
No doubt the wolf has affected the elk herds.
BigHornyRam
New member
The author of this article, Scott McMillion, is definitely a pro wolf granola type. For him to write an article like this says something. What really concerns me is the counts Kurt Alt is coming up with. 400 less elk than last year, and he has already reduce hunter opportunity last season. Wait till the calf counts come in. We need to delist these pricks know!
Paul
Paul
Muledeer4me
New member
Good Post.
It reinforces what many of us have been saying.
Bring in large predators has to have an effect on the overall count of prey.
When the counts get low something has to give ,that brings it to us the human factor being easy to control through reduced hunting opportunity,which happens to fall right into the anit-hunter,animal rights /invironment radicals hands.
When you look at the overall campain and fight over how we use our public lands it's not hard to see where this is leading.
It reinforces what many of us have been saying.
Bring in large predators has to have an effect on the overall count of prey.
When the counts get low something has to give ,that brings it to us the human factor being easy to control through reduced hunting opportunity,which happens to fall right into the anit-hunter,animal rights /invironment radicals hands.
When you look at the overall campain and fight over how we use our public lands it's not hard to see where this is leading.
BigHornyRam
New member
Pointer,
It depends on who you talk to. I think they are getting close to carrying capacity. Here is a question for you. When the elk do get to carrying capacity, do you think the wolves will suddenly stop feeding on them?
This article and others like it always fail to bring up one point. What is the most dramatic control over elk populations? Answer severe winter weather. While they always point to the fact that we are having a severe drought and it is impacting elk populations, no mention of the fact that we have had zero winter mortallity in 6 years. If you knew the players in this game, you would understand why you are not getting the full story.
What do you think will happen to both the elk populations and the wolf populations when we do finally get a severe winter?
Paul
It depends on who you talk to. I think they are getting close to carrying capacity. Here is a question for you. When the elk do get to carrying capacity, do you think the wolves will suddenly stop feeding on them?
This article and others like it always fail to bring up one point. What is the most dramatic control over elk populations? Answer severe winter weather. While they always point to the fact that we are having a severe drought and it is impacting elk populations, no mention of the fact that we have had zero winter mortallity in 6 years. If you knew the players in this game, you would understand why you are not getting the full story.
What do you think will happen to both the elk populations and the wolf populations when we do finally get a severe winter?
Paul
RockyDog
Member
It drives me crazy when these wolfogolists claim the northern herd is at an all time high. Its not. I have the wildlife monograph series with an old study of the northern herd that shows in the 60s and 70s there were up towards 20,000 elk. Now they promote wolves by talking about the devastation the herd is doing to sagebrush and aspen, they aren't being truthful.
Hey Bambi stew, i have a question for you about some canadian elk sheds you posted along time ago. ?
Hey Bambi stew, i have a question for you about some canadian elk sheds you posted along time ago. ?
BigHornyRam
New member
Pointer,
I answered your question. How about answering mine?
Ithaca,
You were looking for proof of lost hunter opportunity. You were looking for proof of low calf ratios. Here it is. No comments?
Paul
I answered your question. How about answering mine?
Ithaca,
You were looking for proof of lost hunter opportunity. You were looking for proof of low calf ratios. Here it is. No comments?
Paul
Ithaca 37
New member
Sure, My comment is that I always expected wolves to eat meat. It's not a big surprise to me. But elk calf survival is down even where there are no wolves, and there's no doubt that the elk herd around Yellowstone was to big for the amount of habitat. So what's the problem? Ya want a healthy elk herd and healthy habitat or not? Or do you want all the surplus elk killed by hunters? That hasn't worked.
I believe the situation will even out in a few years and the elk herd will be better health than ever. But the wolf numbers will have to be controlled, which I've been advocating all along, so the WY ranchers should quit holding up the delisting.
You want hunter opportunity? Idaho can't even give away all their cow elk tags.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-19-2003 18:33: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
I believe the situation will even out in a few years and the elk herd will be better health than ever. But the wolf numbers will have to be controlled, which I've been advocating all along, so the WY ranchers should quit holding up the delisting.
You want hunter opportunity? Idaho can't even give away all their cow elk tags.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-19-2003 18:33: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> When the elk do get to carrying capacity, do you think the wolves will suddenly stop feeding on them?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Elk or whatever else they can catch.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> What do you think will happen to both the elk populations and the wolf populations when we do finally get a severe winter?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Same as any other predator/prey cycle. The prey will go down and will then be mirrored by the predator at a later date. That is if the wolves are mostly dependent on elk for prey.
Elk or whatever else they can catch.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> What do you think will happen to both the elk populations and the wolf populations when we do finally get a severe winter?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Same as any other predator/prey cycle. The prey will go down and will then be mirrored by the predator at a later date. That is if the wolves are mostly dependent on elk for prey.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Same as any other predator/prey cycle. The prey will go down and will then be mirrored by the predator at a later date. That is if the wolves are mostly dependent on elk for prey.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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Thats where the problem is.
when wolves finally knock elk numbers down, they will have other prey available, such as deer, moose, bison, other small critters, and finally the biggest problem for wolves in the lower 48, livestock.
by the time something can be done (if anything) hunting oportunity will be drasticly limited, or eliminated all together in the areas with wolves.
This will cause areas without wolves to be over hunted to the point that hunter numbers will have to be limited, probably by going to a draw system. which will mean that alot of guys will not have the oportunity to hunt at all.
With hunter numbers going down it is already hard enough to get kids involved, we already compete with mtv, xbox, computers ect ect.
In the long run this will lead to fewer people with a love for hunting, and a smaller voice in our government.
And oh the anti's love that!
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Thats where the problem is.
when wolves finally knock elk numbers down, they will have other prey available, such as deer, moose, bison, other small critters, and finally the biggest problem for wolves in the lower 48, livestock.
by the time something can be done (if anything) hunting oportunity will be drasticly limited, or eliminated all together in the areas with wolves.
This will cause areas without wolves to be over hunted to the point that hunter numbers will have to be limited, probably by going to a draw system. which will mean that alot of guys will not have the oportunity to hunt at all.
With hunter numbers going down it is already hard enough to get kids involved, we already compete with mtv, xbox, computers ect ect.
In the long run this will lead to fewer people with a love for hunting, and a smaller voice in our government.
And oh the anti's love that!
BigHornyRam
New member
It,
How do we control the wolf populations in Yellowstone? Why are the bull elk around Yellowstone growing extra large head gear as of late? Lack of feed or lack of competion? Go try to count spikes and rag horns in Yellowstone. Spikes are the ones with the two little horns come out of their head. Where I live, we are in a drought as well. Yesterday I saw a small group of elk, 8 cows, 4 calves and one spike. Why are the Yellowstone herds calf ratios so low? Wouldn't have anything to do with large numbers of wolves would it?
Drought, cougars, bears, bad ranchers, Wyoming politicians, on and on, what other reasons can you think of not to defend delisting? If you were really a hunter you would think differntly.
Pointer,
When the wolves run out of elk, they will move on to livestock, and new territories such as Utah. It is already happening. Wait and see what happens this spring and next year. We aint seen nothing yet.
How do we control the wolf populations in Yellowstone? Why are the bull elk around Yellowstone growing extra large head gear as of late? Lack of feed or lack of competion? Go try to count spikes and rag horns in Yellowstone. Spikes are the ones with the two little horns come out of their head. Where I live, we are in a drought as well. Yesterday I saw a small group of elk, 8 cows, 4 calves and one spike. Why are the Yellowstone herds calf ratios so low? Wouldn't have anything to do with large numbers of wolves would it?
Drought, cougars, bears, bad ranchers, Wyoming politicians, on and on, what other reasons can you think of not to defend delisting? If you were really a hunter you would think differntly.
Pointer,
When the wolves run out of elk, they will move on to livestock, and new territories such as Utah. It is already happening. Wait and see what happens this spring and next year. We aint seen nothing yet.
Mike and Paul- That is a very logical argument, but I've just never seen where that has happened. Maybe with cougars in CA? I'm asking and not trying to be a smart ass.
IMO, the decreases in game animals are caused more by loss/degradation of habitat. At this point, all is speculation, I'm just hoping that the DWR's of the states will be on top of it enough that action can be taken before it's too late.
IMO, the decreases in game animals are caused more by loss/degradation of habitat. At this point, all is speculation, I'm just hoping that the DWR's of the states will be on top of it enough that action can be taken before it's too late.
If you only let nature take care of the eco system, the populations as stated above will bounce up and down drastically. With the way we as humans take care of the northern continent as a whole, we have to be the caretakers...
I used to tell people in Wa. where I had a tree service, that if you were going to have nature in your back yard, ( meaning,trees and what not for them) you have to be the cartaker, nature is not nice in how it takes care to keep every thing in balance, and the balance doesn't stay steady, it fluctuates up and down like a pendulume, never static.. So to get to the point, this is the same stuff we as a nation have to do, since we want to also use nature, we can't just let any one thing go to far, or we will all be hurting for years for it...This same argument can be taken to a lot of themes that we all debate on these boards. We have to be the caretakers and need to keep the balance more static, so we can use the resources better and more often.
I used to tell people in Wa. where I had a tree service, that if you were going to have nature in your back yard, ( meaning,trees and what not for them) you have to be the cartaker, nature is not nice in how it takes care to keep every thing in balance, and the balance doesn't stay steady, it fluctuates up and down like a pendulume, never static.. So to get to the point, this is the same stuff we as a nation have to do, since we want to also use nature, we can't just let any one thing go to far, or we will all be hurting for years for it...This same argument can be taken to a lot of themes that we all debate on these boards. We have to be the caretakers and need to keep the balance more static, so we can use the resources better and more often.
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