Not sure if you got my point some people want bikes and e-bikes banned but are ok with a string of animals. I'm fine with bikes in the wilderness. And yes I have time on horses and mountain bikes.
E-Bikes
- Thread starter BuckRut
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Fortunately, The Wilderness Act isn’t.
npaden
Well-known member
I don't believe I've ever heard of a trail closed during hunting season because someone had a crash and left a bike on the side of a trail. Have heard of it many times with a dead horse along the trail claimed by a bear.
Of course if it was my personal preference I would rather not have bikes or horses allowed! LOL.
Of course if it was my personal preference I would rather not have bikes or horses allowed! LOL.
AvidIndoorsman
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Yep I'm one of those guys. I've packed out elk with horses, llamas, mountain bikes, and ridden a couple of e-bikes and contraptions with gears and pedals don't belong in designated wilderness areas, Period.
My experience is colored by hunting in Colorado and around Bozeman, Montana, but in those states and around Bozeman every a-hole including your's truly has a mountain bike, very very few people these days are willing to maintain horses.
Even at the busiest trail head in CO during hunting season there are never more than a couple of horse trailers. In terms of impact horses are probably on par with mt. bikes, but what you really need to consider is the impact of 1 horse to 500 bikes, because that is about the effective participation rate in the two activities.
npaden
Well-known member
On a serious note, I would assume that they would still be able to have reasonable trail closures if things started to get out of hand. I know of a few popular trails in Montana that are actually closed to horse traffic in the summer because they are so popular. They do open back up to horse traffic in time for hunting season though. I would imagine a few instances of a mountain biker (or an E-biker) crashing into people could get a trail closed to that sort of traffic as well.
Once again there is a lot of wilderness not designated wilderness area in the US. And I firmly believe horses should not be allowed in designated wilderness areas either
Hunters are interesting. Some dream of hunting elk deep in the Washaki in the Thorofare or the White River in the Bob Marshall, while others want it banned (that’s what prohibiting horses is) while others would want to pave a road into both.
A fat tire bike is not a motorcycle
I'm so surprised at your response NOT
Probably as surprised as I am that there’s a flatlander on a hunting forum running his mouth about something he doesn’t get.
As a fairly avid backpack hunter myself, I’d enjoy and gleen a lot of knowledge off a thread on backpack hunting elk 20 miles from the trailhead.
It would probably turn into a great debate between very capable guys like you that obviously can get 250 lb of meat plus camp off the mountain before it spoils and guys that couldn’t imagine going there to begin with, without tomorrow’s newest motorized gizmo and a helicopter.
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BuzzH
Well-known member
Yeah, and there's also a lot of roads and country open to vehicle use, that's exactly where e-bikes should be allowed to operate, on motorized trails and roads. Not on trails open to foot traffic and horses.
This crap has got to STOP. MTGomer has it 100% correct, that hunters are in a big hurry to ruin what little is left of secure areas for big-game. Those animals need places where they can find security away from the throngs of hunters constantly on their ass. When those types of secure areas are decreased in number, those elk react and end up going to the only place they can find security, and that is private property where nobody can hunt.
Of course, then you have the same "sportsmen" whining and griping that they cant access those elk anymore because the jerk landowners wont allow access. Rather than think about how, in the long run, allowing easier and easier access to public lands will impact elk security, all 90% of the hunters think about is "gettin' their elk" this year.
Couple easier access with all the things that have been mentioned in this thread, better gear, long range bows, long range rifles, better glass, better clothing, better boots, packs as well as the plethora of access to information...there aren't many places left for elk to find any kind of decent security.
Further, anyone that isn't man enough to hike in, and put some effort in, doesn't really deserve to have access to every last acre of public land. What about my right to want to afford elk a secure area on public land, or have areas left to hunt that aren't being pounded by ATV's, motorbikes, and now e-bikes? My right to hunt these areas isn't even a consideration and I'm supposed to just "deal" with it because e-bikes allows more users. I say BS to that, your rights end where they infringe on mine. Your rights end where they infringe on my public wildlife having secure areas to live.
I also contend that the only reason many want all the latest gadgets and easier and easier access, is because they're lazy and simply want an easier route to a dead elk. The hunt, the wildlife, and secure habitat don't mean anything to them, only the dead animal they hang their tag on. The end always justifying the means.
This thread is the perfect example of what I hate about hunting and a good number of the hunting population. There is no thought given to anything or anyone else...its really a shame.
Finally, the only way that wildlife and those that manage our wildlife can respond to all this technology and easier and easier access is to shorten seasons, reduce quota's, go to limited quota from general tags, etc. Hunters screw themselves out of the best and most important part of hunting, which is days in the field and access to tags, because they have to take the easy way out. I'd rather fill a tag once every 5 years, but be able to hunt every year, than have an easier hunt and be assured to fill my tag, but only be able to hunt one time in 5 years.
We reap what we sew...and frankly, deserve to.
E-bike=motorized. Strange to believe otherwise. If it's not naturally powered, human, horse, llama, cycle, etc, it does not belong on non motorized trails/roads.
Somehow, electrically powered bikes became non motorized...
To each his/her own
I believe cycles, horses, boots, llamas... and goats (nod to Duck Slayer), etc all should have access to all areas. Restrictions for use, times, seasons, etc all fit for the purpose and conflict potential with flora/fauna.
All we do here is share opinions. No one person holds the tablets on Mount Hunt Talk regardless the perfected arrogance the keyboard provides. I agree/disagree though in the end, respect other opinions shared.
Somehow, electrically powered bikes became non motorized...
To each his/her own
I believe cycles, horses, boots, llamas... and goats (nod to Duck Slayer), etc all should have access to all areas. Restrictions for use, times, seasons, etc all fit for the purpose and conflict potential with flora/fauna.
All we do here is share opinions. No one person holds the tablets on Mount Hunt Talk regardless the perfected arrogance the keyboard provides. I agree/disagree though in the end, respect other opinions shared.
ismith
Well-known member
Someday I hope to find an E-bike in a wilderness area so I can give it a Bobcatbess style "tune-up".
Addicting
Well-known member
Buzz, I normally appreciate your knowledge on the issues and the work you put forth on them.
With that said, this part of your post is pure macho judging arrogance. It has nothing to do with how Manly someone is. Nor do their rights end when you feel your’s are infringed.
Everyone is acting like this will be the end of hunting, it won’t. There is millions of acres that those bike won’t go even if it’s allowed just due to topography. On top of that not to many hunters are going to shell out 2700+ dollars for a bike.
Now with that said, I do believe the classification of them needs to be the same across the board. However, in the end if they are allowed and people are legally using them, who are any of us to judge or take whatever bobcatbess vigilante tune ups are against them.
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
The point being expressed here by many is that too many concessions are being made to accomodate ever increasing technological and mechanical ease of access into heretofore natural wild areas preferred as habitat for wildlife and as places of quiet nature sought by many for the enjoyment of solitude. The seemingly predominant attitude is that if it satisfies someone's "I want it, so you should legalize it!" attitude at the expense of wild places, wildlife, and natural solitude, then enact a law to make it an option. Man's success seems to be defined by how much of the earth he can "tame" with roads, structures, development and continuous evolvement of ease of access. 'Very sad, even self destructive, IMO.
AvidIndoorsman
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@BuzzH is spot on.
I think your view of the issue is a bit myopic. Sure with regards to hunting, the use of e-bikes, by hunter's on designating biking trails, won't be the end of western hunting. But what will be the end of hunting, and is already happening, is the use of e-bikes by non-consumptive users and Wilderness being open to bikes and e-bikes.
Correct me if I'm wrong but your kinda thinking about a bunch of bubbas from Arkansas and Mississippi, using e-bikes to get a few miles in... when I think about opening Wilderness to bikes and ebikes I think about my friends who run ultras and bike the leadville & butte 100's using them to literally ride from Kalispell to Helena in a day. Instead of having to hire a horse packer literally thousands of people will have access to the furthest corners of our wilderness area. Topography, especially with high end ebikes, won't stop anyone, there isn't a hiking trail in existence that one can't bike, and an athlete on a bike will destroy a horse or llama train any day of the week. I have 2 buddies from college that chase this record every summer, so far their best is just under 4 days. http://bikepacker.com/jesse-jakomait-new-colorado-trail-race-record-holder/
I grew up in the extreme sports community, and I realize that everyone doesn't see biking the way I do... here's a taste of what people are doing.
Gus, my dog, almost got smoked a couple of weeks ago Ptarmigan hunting at 13,000 feet by some POS riding off trail down an avalanche chute.
The over use of trails by non-consumptive users is already destroying our herds in CO, and it's only the tip of the iceberg, within 20 years there won't be a mt town in the west that isn't feeling the pinch.
This my home town.
Where has all the wildlife gone: CPW officials cite 50 percent drop in Eagle Valley’s elk population
EAGLE COUNTY — Imagine if, over a 10-year period, half of Eagle County’s human population disappeared.We would be using the terms “drastic,” “alarming” and maybe even “catastrophic” to describe
www.vaildaily.com
It's gotten so bad in Crested butte that they are looking at flat out banning camping (this is potentially going to have a major effect on hunting seasons in units 43, 521, and 55
Forest Service plans to eliminate north-valley dispersed camping
Dispersed camping at the north end of the Gunnison Valley is no longer sustainable. That’s according to the U.S. Forest Service. Amid increasing visitation to the area and enforcement challenges,
www.gunnisontimes.com
As far as cost, make a visit to CO in the summer and take a drive on I-70 from Fruita to Denver. You will literally see thousands of cars and trucks sporting bikes made by Pivot, Specialized, Yeti, Felt, Kona, Salsa, etc etc. all with MSRPs well over 4k. There are 20 Tesla's in my parking structure, people in CO have money. A e-bike for your average resident hunter who can live the Metro area is nothing... https://www.denverpost.com/2018/11/15/denver-salary-median-home/
My wife and I are looking at moving next year and were looking at houses in Michigan, for the price of our 1 bedroom 700sqft apartment we could buy a heck of a lot of home in Michigan.
I can see why you and @sschultz don't see why these issues aren't a big deal, on the face of it your logic is sound... but you have to unpack the entire issue. Colorado and the rest of the west is getting loved to death and these attacks on our wild places are just the tip of the iceberg.
BuzzH
Well-known member
What a joke.
Maybe you should try reflecting on the changes that have happened just since I started hunting in 1979. There was no such thing as an ATV, most motorbikes were either home-made deals, or maybe a trail 90 or 110. Snowmobiles were outlandish if they had a 340 cc motor. No such thing as a razor or side by side. Matter of fact, I knew plenty of very good hunters that didn't even own a 4-wheel drive vehicle.
Back then, elk didn't flock to private land in September, pushed there by hunting pressure. People didn't feel entitled to drive their machine across every acre of public land, elk had secure areas on public land. Elk stayed on public land and for those willing to put the effort in, found great hunting. It also allowed the people that didn't man up and hike a few miles more opportunities at elk as well, since there were enough around that some elk still inhabited the easier public land country.
Flash forward to 2019. The "easy" elk that people are hunting now, usually are found on rare occasions when they step from private property to some small sliver of public. Typically, there's a handful of "hunters" who have been watching those elk every morning hoping they find them on the right side of the fence. Lots of "pretty" things happen when the elk make a mistake and move to those public pieces. Fights over who shot what elk, wounded elk limping back to private, shoot-outs with multiple animals not being claimed...you know the real spirit of hunting. I've seen it happen, and its a total shit-show from stem to stern. Nothing signifies a great elk hunt and a true backcountry experience more than playing border patrol in a pasture.
But, I cant really blame the hunters that do that, hunters will hunt where the elk are. The massive increase in pressure on National Forests and other big blocks of public lands and ease of access by thousands of miles of open roads, ATV's, UTV's, 250-500 CC motorbikes, mountain bikes, and now e-bikes has caused this. Combined with all the other technology and young, tough hunters with gear that in 1979 weighed pounds, now weighing ounces. And, that same gear is better quality! There are not many, if any places or lengths people wont go to hunt. Net result is massive pressure on public lands and the animals that try to live there. So massive is the pressure, they have no choice but to leave and find security on the last place they can...private.
I laughed at your comment about hunters not being willing to spend $2700 on an e-bike, that's an even bigger joke. I have over 4 grand wrapped up in just a spotting scope and binoculars. I spend more than $2700 a year on license fees. I see 60K pickups, all the time driving through Laramie, hunters orange caps on the dashboard pulling 30K toy haulers with 10K worth of ATV's/UTV's.
You think people aren't willing to spend $2700 on a bike to make it easier to access public land? Laffin'...
Let me tell you Chief, public lands with secure habitat have been shrinking for a long, long time. There are a lot less "millions and millions" of acres that are hard to access, where a person cant get a machine of some sort within a pretty easy hike of. I know, because I spend about half my year at work completing permanent growth plots, laid out on a random grid, across 8 states. Its a pretty rare bird when I cant get a machine of some sort within a couple hour hike of where I need to go.
Continue to lie to yourself and bullchit the fans, but you aren't going to bullchit me, I live it and have been for a long time. The entitlement attitude and the hastiness of people to tame the backcountry, by any and all methods, has done a huge disservice to the sport, to wildlife, wildlife habitat, and public lands. There is no debating that.
I have some amount of leverage in policy decisions and I'll use it to keep e-bikes where they belong, right next to the other motor/gearheads.
AvidIndoorsman
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Conversation with my father-in-law... "You keep hearing about all these guys on sleds dying in avalanches... that just doesn't make sense to me, how do they get a sled in terrain steep enough to slide"
In my head....
npaden
Well-known member
I think I need to get another drone since I crashed mine and I can then get an e-bike and I will be able to have the drone video me riding my e-bike to where the elk are. Then I can use a FLIR thermal imaging setup to find the elk in the dark before it gets light and setup on them about a half mile away, use my Sig BDX laser range finder scope system to range them and adjust the aimpoint on my scope via the bluetooth connection and I should be all set. Just pull the trigger and it's over.
Maybe I need to get a bigger drone that could help with retrieval because that part is still gonna suck though.
The above is said mostly tongue in cheek, but I think technically that would be legal in most states right now. And the technology is there on all of it if you are willing to pay for it (except the drone big enough to help with retrieval).
I think people being fit and wanting to enjoy the outdoors is almost as big of an issue as the technology. Ultra trail races that drew a few dozen hard core athletes a couple decades ago are selling out and even running lottery systems with points to enter now due to permit limits on the number of entrants. And there are way more ultra trail races than there was probably just 10 years ago as well.
I really think that there is going to be a time in the not so distant future that we are going to be regulated on trail use and have to have permits, etc. to limit the impact. It actually is already in place at some of the most popular spots. Go try to hike to Mt. Whitney without a permit. Try to spend the night in the Grand Canyon without a permit. We aren't alone in wanting to be out there in the woods or on the trail. As we get more and more people realizing how amazing the backcountry is, it will be harder and harder to get the peace and solitude that we love so much. With or without e-bikes.
My 1/2 cent. Nathan
Maybe I need to get a bigger drone that could help with retrieval because that part is still gonna suck though.
The above is said mostly tongue in cheek, but I think technically that would be legal in most states right now. And the technology is there on all of it if you are willing to pay for it (except the drone big enough to help with retrieval).
I think people being fit and wanting to enjoy the outdoors is almost as big of an issue as the technology. Ultra trail races that drew a few dozen hard core athletes a couple decades ago are selling out and even running lottery systems with points to enter now due to permit limits on the number of entrants. And there are way more ultra trail races than there was probably just 10 years ago as well.
I really think that there is going to be a time in the not so distant future that we are going to be regulated on trail use and have to have permits, etc. to limit the impact. It actually is already in place at some of the most popular spots. Go try to hike to Mt. Whitney without a permit. Try to spend the night in the Grand Canyon without a permit. We aren't alone in wanting to be out there in the woods or on the trail. As we get more and more people realizing how amazing the backcountry is, it will be harder and harder to get the peace and solitude that we love so much. With or without e-bikes.
My 1/2 cent. Nathan
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