Daines- Bill to Reform Monument Designation Process

[Ben Lamb]

I wish I had something inspirational to say, but I'm working on a Sunday and not pleased about it (my own fault).

Tired is an understatement.

 

[tjones]

Tired but nice.

 

[James Riley]

The other side doesn't see things my way so forget about them, they are irrelevant...? End justifies the means.

The petulant psephocracy was elected by democratic process. Calling the Donald winning the presidency a fluke might be accurate but would ignore what happened in the House and Senate.

We tend to have tunnel vision on this forum about public lands since we are all so passionate about them. For most Americans public access concerns, are way down the list of a host of issues they feel Obama and the Democrats crammed down their throats. Now the Republicans have their brief turn at dispensing the medicine. I'm sure there are plenty of them giddy about having the opportunity to express their petulance from the get go.

Like it or hate it, it is what it is.

My disagreement is with your notion that the Ds overplayed their hand. As suggested by my hour 1 through 10 assessment, I think they underplayed it.

First, while they were not dealt the worst hand in this nation's history, it was definitely one of the worst. The Republican response to 9/11, a failure to use regulation and otherwise engage un-funded runaway spending ended up breaking America and, ultimately, the world. Obama, with some super-glue, has put some of it back together and now leaves Trump like Clinton left Bush; with a good hand. Americans have short memories but I'd hope they remember just how f'ing bad it was in 2008.

Then, after Obama was elected and before he even took the oath of office, the Republicans as much as dug their heals in and swore they would stone wall him at every turn in the road, even when they agreed with him, and even when it would be good for America, they would refuse to do anything that might be seen as good for Obama. They continued this throughout his entire 8 years. Thus, they own your statement: "The other side doesn't see things my way so forget about them, they are irrelevant...? End justifies the means." That was the Republicans for the entire 8 years.

To the extent Obama shoved anything down anyone's throat (which is BS), it was the only way to do anything. He went to the Republicans on bended knee, repeatedly, and tried to work with them. When they refused to even give him the time of day, he did what a President had to do: he played a hand. He didn't over play it. And he didn't shove anything down anyone's throat. He merely didn't roll over and give the babies their way 100%, which they still would have refused because, well, he's Obama. He just played the ONLY way they left for him to play. Hell, he even compromised his Obamacare by leaving the private sector involved as a concession to the markets but they destroyed it. Now the Republican dogs have caught the bus they were chasing and we all get to see what they do with it. Idiots.

As to the House and Senate: don't over-read that. The only "message of the people" was in the matter of Trump/Sanders. The down ballot was no big difference; Just more of the idiots on both sides, riled up by fear, voting the party line. The country, and all the idiots, and virtually every measure, are actually way better off today than they were in 2008. They just think they are not because they are told they are not.

It's like the Obamacare thing: Guess what people? Premiums went up because the insurance companies raised them. If Obamacare goes away, the premiums will still go up because the insurance companies raise them. And guess what else? The premiums were going up even more and at a faster rate before Obamacare. But hey, if you are told that Obamacare is the reason your life sucks, then go vote for a Republican and get your hate on. American idiots love that shit.

Finally, I don't view Trump as a fluke. I view Trump as the statement. And a legitimate statement. But the down ballot was just the same old shit.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Tired but nice.

Maybe I'll hit pigF#$*ers by Friday.

 

[tjones]

Maybe I'll hit pigF#$*ers by Friday.

That's the spirit!

 

[Northwoods Labs]

Sooo much negativity and fear mongering.

Wow, yet another very informative post. Seems to be a theme

 

[u1299]

My disagreement is with your notion that the Ds overplayed their hand. As suggested by my hour 1 through 10 assessment, I think they underplayed it.

First, while they were not dealt the worst hand in this nation's history, it was definitely one of the worst. The Republican response to 9/11, a failure to use regulation and otherwise engage un-funded runaway spending ended up breaking America and, ultimately, the world. Obama, with some super-glue, has put some of it back together and now leaves Trump like Clinton left Bush; with a good hand. Americans have short memories but I'd hope they remember just how f'ing bad it was in 2008.

Then, after Obama was elected and before he even took the oath of office, the Republicans as much as dug their heals in and swore they would stone wall him at every turn in the road, even when they agreed with him, and even when it would be good for America, they would refuse to do anything that might be seen as good for Obama. They continued this throughout his entire 8 years. Thus, they own your statement: "The other side doesn't see things my way so forget about them, they are irrelevant...? End justifies the means." That was the Republicans for the entire 8 years.

To the extent Obama shoved anything down anyone's throat (which is BS), it was the only way to do anything. He went to the Republicans on bended knee, repeatedly, and tried to work with them. When they refused to even give him the time of day, he did what a President had to do: he played a hand. He didn't over play it. And he didn't shove anything down anyone's throat. He merely didn't roll over and give the babies their way 100%, which they still would have refused because, well, he's Obama. He just played the ONLY way they left for him to play. Hell, he even compromised his Obamacare by leaving the private sector involved as a concession to the markets but they destroyed it. Now the Republican dogs have caught the bus they were chasing and we all get to see what they do with it. Idiots.

As to the House and Senate: don't over-read that. The only "message of the people" was in the matter of Trump/Sanders. The down ballot was no big difference; Just more of the idiots on both sides, riled up by fear, voting the party line. The country, and all the idiots, and virtually every measure, are actually way better off today than they were in 2008. They just think they are not because they are told they are not.

It's like the Obamacare thing: Guess what people? Premiums went up because the insurance companies raised them. If Obamacare goes away, the premiums will still go up because the insurance companies raise them. And guess what else? The premiums were going up even more and at a faster rate before Obamacare. But hey, if you are told that Obamacare is the reason your life sucks, then go vote for a Republican and get your hate on. American idiots love that shit.

Finally, I don't view Trump as a fluke. I view Trump as the statement. And a legitimate statement. But the down ballot was just the same old shit.

Great Post, so much truth I can't find anything to disagree with.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Quote Originally Posted by Eric Albus View Post
Sooo much negativity and fear mongering.

Wow, yet another very informative post. Seems to be a theme

Expressed by Northwoods Lab.

Good point, Northwoods. As recently well articulated, when one doesn't have a rational opinion or perspective supported by good information ... then one tends to resort to sarcasm and cynicism.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Expressed by Northwoods Lab.

Good point, Northwoods. As recently well articulated, when one doesn't have a rational opinion or perspective supported by good information ... then one tends to resort to sarcasm and cynicism.

I will disagree with that comment. You should not paint with a broad brush.

Much of my sarcasm and cynicism is directly a result of good information and a rational opinion.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Yes, Jose, regardless of valid information and rational opinion ... you do quite effectively go first to sarcasm and cynicism!

Most of the rest of us are humbly ineffective in doing so.

 

[noharleyyet]

I will disagree with that comment. You should not paint with a broad brush.

Much of my sarcasm and cynicism is directly a result of good information and a rational opinion.

Absolutely Jose....mostly good info and rationality by others that you're attempting to deflect.

 

[Nameless Range]

The idea that this is backlash ignores the fact that the The Antiquities Act has been under attack for 100 years.

For anybody questioning that, use https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/browse . You can search the text of most bills proposed all the way back to 1799. Type "Antiquities Act" in quotations into the search bar and select the congress you want to search. Just doing a random and incomplete search I see attempts to slay it in the 1940s, 1950s, 1980s,1990s, and now.

This is Standard Operating Procedure for those opposed to the Antiquities Act in Congress, and trying to explain it away as backlash is nothing but special pleading, but it certainly makes sense to those without the historical context of attacks on the Act.

 

[OriginalOscar]

The Antiquities Act makes sense to preserve something specific. It was never intended to circumvent the legislative process. Two states; Wyoming and Alaska have clauses which require congressional approval for anything over 5,000 acres which seems reasonable. Theses state clauses are the result of backlash over creation of Teton by FDR and 51M acres of monuments in Alaska by Carter. Several weeks ago the Salt Lake Tribune posted a pro/con pair of editorials and one astounding number was the average size of monuments designated has grown exponentially over the years. (I will post if I can find them) Presidents are using the Antiquities Act as a path to creating National Parks and defacto Wilderness. Of course nobody worries about the new budget requirements when designated.

Quick scan of designations up to GW Bush shows a pattern of extensive end of term designations. It really bugs me the NPS doesn't even list Grand Staircase in Utah. That one was 1.7M acres.

Antiquities Act Designations by President - https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/hisnps/NPSHistory/national_monuments.pdf

 

[Deleted member 20812]

It doesn't list Grand Staircase because it isn't an NPS monument. It's a BLM monument.

 

[James Riley]

It was never intended to circumvent the legislative process.

Actually, I think it was.

 

[OriginalOscar]

It doesn't list Grand Staircase because it isn't an NPS monument. It's a BLM monument.

Thank you for catching that error. This one looks complete.
https://www.npca.org/resources/2658...iquities-act#sm.00017bfo2c3h8e9bpw51kglfk7xc4

26 for Obama. Any questions why people are upset?

 

[sbhooper]

It's like listening to conservatives for the last 8 years.

THis isn't blow back from the use of the Antiquities Act, it's blow back because the Act exists. It's been a cherry some have wanted to pluck since it was put in place in 1906. This bill is nothing more than a retread of bills we've seen the last 100+ years.

The excuse will be Bear's Ear & Gold Butte, but the impetus is to make it easier to steal or sell your land. Plain and simple. The same people proposing this are the ones who have blocked movement to pass wilderness bills for decades in Montana, and now want all WSA's released because no action has been taken. They're convinced government is broken, and they're dead set on showing you how they broke it.

Spoken like a true lib. Government IS broken, Ben! It is amazing to me how you have no problem tying up gobs of land as a monument because it is pushed by the lefties with the stroke of a pen, but when someone tries to make things go through the legislative process (conservatives), you have a sky-is-falling attack again. Absolutely amazing and typical.

 

[OriginalOscar]

Actually, I think it was.

Valid point. Intent was "the limits of which in all cases shall be confined to the smallest area compatible with proper care and management of the objects to be protected". Didn't need 1.3M acres for Bears Ears.

Sec. 2. That the President of the United States is hereby authorized, in his discretion, to declare by public proclamation historic landmarks, historic and prehistoric structures, and other objects of historic or scientific interest that are situated upon the lands owned or controlled by the Government of the United States to be national monuments, and may reserve as a part thereof parcels of land, the limits of which in all cases shall be confined to the smallest area compatible with proper care and management of the objects to be protected: Provided, That when such objects are situated upon a tract covered by a bona fied unperfected claim or held in private ownership, the tract, or so much thereof as may be necessary for the proper care and management of the object, may be relinquished to the Government, and the Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized to accept the relinquishment of such tracts in behalf of the Government of the United States.

 

[James Riley]

Valid point. Intent was "the limits of which in all cases shall be confined to the smallest area compatible with proper care and management of the objects to be protected". Didn't need 1.3M acres for Bears Ears.

I think it did. Actually, it needed more. Let's say there is a single petroglyph on one rock. You and I can disagree all day long on how much land it would take to protect it. You might say 300 square feet. I say 30,000 square miles. But either way, locals get their input and there are people who championed this thing. Obama didn't pull this out of his butt. In fact, he never heard of it until someone told him about it. Where they all out-of-state enviro whackos? No, they were locals too.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Spoken like a true lib. Government IS broken, Ben! It is amazing to me how you have no problem tying up gobs of land as a monument because it is pushed by the lefties with the stroke of a pen, but when someone tries to make things go through the legislative process (conservatives), you have a sky-is-falling attack again. Absolutely amazing and typical.

Try it without the name calling.

I have no problem going through the legislative process. The Rocky Mountain Front Heritage Act was passed in 2012. I worked on that bill for 5 years. It was the first wilderness bill that passed in a generation due to the political gamesmanship the Republicans were playing. If we were to consider wilderness bills, etc, by their merit, we'd not need things like the Antiquities Act. But we do, because politicians play games with public lands and rather than work with conservationists, they try to eliminate them, remove protections for them, etc. Congress most assuredly is broken, and on public lands, has been for a long time. So when the legislative process is intentionally broken, and lands deserve protection from rapacious developers, I'm glad America had the foresight to give the President, via the legislative process, the ability to conserve America's cultural treasures.

Theodore Roosevelt had the exact same problems 110 years ago, which is why the Act passed narrowly. People wanted to turn the Grand Canyon into an amusement park and mine. He stopped that through executive action. The wisdom of the Antiquities Act has been born out over the course of history. People who think public land's only value is what you can strip from it think it's a bad idea. People who value our heritage and the cultures that used that land before value it.