"Compensatory Reproduction" in Coyotes, why killing them equals more coyotes and less deer

[Nick87]

Well right on. I’m glad to hear people think they’re a cool critter despite the fact it’s a hobby to kill them in every way imaginable in western states.

What does killing a critters have to do with not thinking something is cool or having respect for that animal? Serious question?

 

[Gerald Martin]

What does killing a critters have to do with not thinking something is cool or having respect for that animal? Serious question?

Nothing much more exciting to hunt than an open ground coyote called into close range. That’s super fun.

I’m also good with watching them do their thing and unless I am in the mood to skin one and I know the fur is good they get a pass more often than not.


I’m of the opinion that the two positions are not incompatible with each other.

 

[Hawk Tuah]

Other than a very few exceptions, if I'm hunting something, then I see a coyote, I'm all of the sudden coyote hunting.

But I don't do it to help deer populations. I do it because it is fun.

Getting a coyote when hunting something else is like getting a basket in basketball and drawing a foul...then making the shot..."and one!"

 

[Nick87]

Nothing much more exciting to hunt than an open ground coyote called into close range. That’s super fun.

I’m also good with watching them do their thing and unless I am in the mood to skin one and I know the fur is good they get a pass more often than not.


I’m of the opinion that the two positions are not incompatible with each other.

We are in the same boat. I've watched them and given them a pass many times. Ive also killed a pile out of sheer oppurtunity. I don't hate them or any other predators. But I do love hunting them. Even when the fur ain't worth the gas to get there.

 

[NR_Hunter]

What does killing a critters have to do with not thinking something is cool or having respect for that animal? Serious question?

there’s a level of bloodthirstiness for coyotes that isn’t compatible with respect.

We are all hunters here, obviously we all know we can kill something and still respect it and revere it, but I don’t think you’ll find a lot of respect for coyotes in the sporting world, as evidenced by people who simply can’t not shoot them whenever presented the opportunity.

 

[huntin24/7]

In eastern MT where they are the only predators besides us, they definitely take their toll(mostly on fawns), so I don’t think you can discount the effect they have in a lot of areas. That being said, they aren’t as big of an issue as human take from mismanagement and weather(drought/bad winters). I think they’re cool animals and enjoy hunting them. They’re too smart and adaptive to be controlled by normal hunting means anyways.

 

[WanderWoman]

One of the tenets of the NA Model is “wildlife can only be killed for a legitimate purpose.” As a sportsman I personally struggle with killing something for the sake of killing it.

More often than not, when there’s not a specific need (livestock, specific localized instances to help prey animal X), or they’re otherwise not being used somehow (trapping, fur), it’s one of the harder things to justify to nonhunters or fringe anti-hunters when talking about how hunting is conservation, etc. I cringe when we I see a poster for things like derbies.

Again, my personal opinion. Everyone has their own set of ethics and reasons for doing or not doing things.

 

[antlerradar]

One thing is for sure the more you shoot the more show up, I’ve witnessed that a lot. Coyotes are one adaptive critter. However when and how you take them out does effect the deer herd to some extent. Seen that too.

I think that this is key. I think it is a stretch for the authors of the article to conclude that shoot coyotes is no help for the deer. This is why. They did there coyote population surveys in the fall, when coyote populations are going to be near peak, The vast majority of people haven't even started to shoot coyotes then. With hunted Coyote populations, numbers are going to be at there lowest from late winter to when the pups leave the den. The would mean that the number of coyotes would be lower when the deer are most susceptible. When they are weak from just surviving winter and when the fawns are born. I think we can conclude that hunting coyotes means more coyotes for people to shoot.

The Powder River County paper just recently reprinted a clip from the paper fifty years ago. One fur buyer purchased 3500 coyotes from Powder River County in 1976 and that was just one of maybe a half dozen fur buyers working SE MT. We were killing a lot of coyotes 50 years ago. I have no doubt that coyote can breed there way back from that level of harvest, they can most certainly do so under the much lower take today. There must have been big swings in the coyote population fifty years ago over the course of the year to sustain that level of harvest. Having a high number of coyotes during the fall is not going to matter much to the deer, Having a low number of coyotes in late winter when the snow is deep or when the fawns are young is going to be a plus for deer.

 

[SAJ-99]

Having a low number of coyotes in late winter when the snow is deep or when the fawns are young is going to be a plus for deer.

Yeah, but the snow pushes the deer closer to the roads where they get whacked by the largest predator, the F150. That provides more food for coyotes, who breed in winter, and end up with larger litters in spring. Determining the size of the plus for deer is hard. I would bet it isn’t high enough for people to even notice given all the other variables.

I followed a couple of the links. Seems like a lot of scientists have studied this topic in a lot of regions over the years. Glad to see it hasn’t changed minds.

 

[antlerradar]

Yeah, but the snow pushes the deer closer to the roads where they get whacked by the largest predator, the F150. That provides more food for coyotes, who breed in winter, and end up with larger litters in spring. Determining the size of the plus for deer is hard. I would bet it isn’t high enough for people to even notice given all the other variables.

I followed a couple of the links. Seems like a lot of scientists have studied this topic in a lot of regions over the years. Glad to see it hasn’t changed minds.

Since we are speculating, killing coyotes results in more deer, so coyotes have bigger litters, so more coyotes.
I think you are 100% right, under today's coyote hunting pressure, probably not a big enough difference to even notice. The pressure during the fur boom of the 70's, maybe a different story.

 

[brymoore]

Since we are speculating, killing coyotes results in more deer, so coyotes have bigger litters, so more coyotes.
I think you are 100% right, under today's coyote hunting pressure, probably not a big enough difference to even notice. The pressure during the fur boom of the 70's, maybe a different story.

USDA Wildlife Services kills roughly 80k coyotes a year by helicopter air gunning.

Coyotes were worth up to $120 a pelt until Canada Goose switched to synthetic within the last 3 years.

Pressure was still high recently.

 

[SAJ-99]

Since we are speculating, killing coyotes results in more deer, so coyotes have bigger litters, so more coyotes.
I think you are 100% right, under today's coyote hunting pressure, probably not a big enough difference to even notice. The pressure during the fur boom of the 70's, maybe a different story.

Probably. A high amount of consistent pressure over the long term in a specific area would certainly have an impact, even it temporary. And holding other variables constant.

Also Funny because I found a study from the late 70’s done in S IL on stomach contents. Probably couldn’t draw a conclusion from it but like I said, coyotes seem to be a popular topic to study.

 

[Bonasababy]

Old news in professional circles...still not accepted publicly by way too many, unfortunately. Not just coyotes either...many predators increase their reproduction and/ or reduce territory size in the face of focused human caused mortality.

And too many look at one species but not the whole.

Back in the late 70s Al Sargeant and his colleagues at the Northern Prairie Wildlife Research Center showed us that heavy pressure on coyotes leads to a large increase in red fox...and since fox are a far more efficient and effective predator on grassland nesters like pheasants and mallards, heavy pressure on coyotes is counterproductive if you want to lessen predation on grassland nesters.

The same group showed us (first with research conducted on Mallard Island on Lake Sakakawea) how quickly predators bounce back even in the face of abnormal year round pressure...and how expensive and extensive that pressure has to be to make even a short term difference.

Still today, ill-advised coyote killing contests and bounties exist...with proponents ignoring clear evidence that they are actually working against their desires.

 

[antlerradar]

Yeah, but the snow pushes the deer closer to the roads where they get whacked by the largest predator, the F150. That provides more food for coyotes, who breed in winter, and end up with larger litters in spring.

Absolutely fake news. Any kid that watched cartoons in the 70's knows that highways are extremely hazardous to the health of coyotes.

 

[antlerradar]

USDA Wildlife Services kills roughly 80k coyotes a year by helicopter air gunning.

Coyotes were worth up to $120 a pelt until Canada Goose switched to synthetic within the last 3 years.

Pressure was still high recently.

80k is not a small number, but is likely small compared to the late 70's take.
I can remember getting better than $100 for a coyote in 78, That would be like getting over 500 today.

 

[mtmuley]

80k is not a small number, but is likely small compared to the late 70's take.
I can remember getting better than $100 for a coyote in 78, That would be like getting over 500 today.

I remember my Uncle taking dozens and dozens, heck maybe even hundreds of coyotes from Shelby to Great Falls to sell at about that time frame. He ran cranes and killed coyotes in the winter. If you were a coyotes around Shelby, Montana back then, your life was in grave danger. mtmuley

 

[RealMuddyboots]

Yeah, but the snow pushes the deer closer to the roads where they get whacked by the largest predator, the F150.

There is no way a F150 can catch a wily coyote near the road.

 

[Point Creep]

Where’s @psinclair?

 

[44hunter45]

Dan Flores covers this concept and the research in depth in his 2016 book "Coyote America"
Easy and fun read.

 

[Nick87]

80k is not a small number, but is likely small compared to the late 70's take.
I can remember getting better than $100 for a coyote in 78, That would be like getting over 500 today.

We didnt have any coyotes to speak of back then around here. But my old man tells stories of guys fist fighting over road killed fur on the side of the road back then.