I don't understand know how it is legal for them to have a combined youth/adult draw, accept all of the application fees, but not allow adults the same opportunity to draw tags as the youth. I would like to see them do a youth only draw and then whatever tags are left let adults apply for them when everyone has the same chance to draw.
Colorado 2nd Draw?
- Thread starter Muley_Stalker
- Start date
The MSG solution has fewer negative implications than the current reissue for other big game species. Anyone misguided enough to return a MSG license for pp restoration is not likely to draw again in their lifetime (cows/ewes excepted). And anyone accepting a returned license loses their points.
Khunter
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AS you will see after this draw there will be almost zero tags left. Youth will draw everything of ‘value’
AvidIndoorsman
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Absolutely. I also don't really have an issue with the MSG tags, and that process. My response was more in response to @Khunter saying it was the impetus for opening pandoras box.
I CORA'd all the lists from 2021. If I get them, I will convert them all to a spreadsheet by code and post it.
Yeah, well my PR strategy would not have been to lead into this conversation with “RMBS started all of this $h!t.” Just doing damage control…
…and ribbing @Khunter.
Really - this started with only trying to fix MSG reissuance and CPW created NR sniping of RES returns on D-E-P?
Even for a ewe or cow moose tag, why not just punt those tags to the following year or build excess into a quota?
DM053O3R required 15 NR points to draw in 2021 and CPW offers it up as a freebie to an NR youth. WTF.
My NR son just walked up to an orderly line of people (some sitting in that line for 16 years) and he screamed "YOUTH" and the dead sea parted for him quicker than an elderly woman is offered a bus seat.
As bad as CO Secondary/Youth draw is, the story gets even worse as the process moves along to re-issue when NR adults join in on the essentially OTC grab-what-you-can-for-zero-points process. At the quality end for D-E-P, these are almost exclusively RES return tags. And many convert to NR despite any purported NR cap.
AvidIndoorsman
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That's not really accurate. MSG licenses have been reissued to the next person on the list since 2006. @Sandbrew can tell you all about that, because he was the catalyst for the change.
The reissue of DEP came about as part of the CPW financial sustainability discussion a few years ago.
Buffs35
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The problems and potential solutions are obvious to all, but the problem is P&W isn't going to fix anything. Not because they can't, but rather because they don't care.
I would offer a nuance, and that is that the CPW commissioners are largely not big game hunters and don't understand the system or the problems with it well enough to be making informed decisions about how to improve it. And CPW has no motivation to educate them.
Mooretitan
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I am going to take a chance on a couple of them depending on how they line up with other hunts this year. I am sure that odds even for youth are not that great.
Anyways I am on the fence on the system. Yes I would like a tag but also have kids who will never have the chance at some of these tags in the regular draw. It’s a hard one both ways but at least there is still the chance to get out and hunt
Anyways I am on the fence on the system. Yes I would like a tag but also have kids who will never have the chance at some of these tags in the regular draw. It’s a hard one both ways but at least there is still the chance to get out and hunt
I read the CPW commissioner bios and yes - ain't no way most of them could/would follow this thread.
Same problem in Nevada where only 1 of the 7 commissioners (i.e., NBWC) seems to understand the very similar problems with their re-issue process (FCFS). It was sad to watch that single commissioner try to explain the FCFS issues to the other grey-hairs who just can't keep up with such a nuanced issue. He even used the Colorado re-issue model/problems as a case study when arguing against instituting it in NV. But, NDOW got their re-issue (FCFS) pushed through anyway - so they can sell the same tag twice, often at 10X NR rate, extra fees, etc... The same reasons CPW wanted re-issue for "financial sustainability".
AvidIndoorsman
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I've read a lot of threads on the CO process and sat through a lot of those zoom meetings...
I think No Refunds Period is probably the best course of action, no bringing back points, no money back.
I get it I really do... but it just snowballs.
Now, I'm not going to die on that hill and sure compromise, but I've yet to hear any compelling argument against that policy.
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I agree, I think it would greatly help point creep and people would apply a lot differently
Mighty Mouse
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For those claiming that giving youth preference in the secondary draw is the only way youth applicants will ever have a chance at some of these tags...how do you figure that they would never be able to draw as adults in the primary draw? These applicants are under 18 and are (presumably) building preference points. If they continue gaining a point per year and live an average lifespan, they'll eventually join the max pointholders club and have a chance at whatever tag they want. It might take 40 years to get there, but if a "once in a lifetime" quality tag is what they're after, then it's fair that they should have to wait most of a lifetime to draw it.
Bullshot
Well-known member
Also very annoyed that multiples of a tag I didn’t draw in primary is here in the secondary and I have to pay (again) for a chance and probably fail (again) only to inevitably see it later hit reissue list where i will fail (again) to draw it. Just a crazy system.
I just think point creep is inevitable. It’s happening across the west even in states that don’t returning of the tag. I mean just look at WY. Every single state in the west is experiencing it. I just don’t think a no return policy fixes it. It might slow it down somewhat idk
point creep is inevitable because no state is doing anything about it that will fix it.
any small step backwards is a good step. if states realize they have the balls to roll back one small crappy decision made in the past, perhaps they can make bigger decisions to roll back bigger, crappier decisions in the future. get that snowball rolling down a hill we wanna roll down.
AvidIndoorsman
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Jdp10 - As @Oak pointed out this started as a MSG idea only after I realized turned in MSG male and female tags went in the trash. Every year 20+ people for each species of MSG turned in tags and they went in the trash. Now 20+ people get to hunt those species and are removed from the point pool. I think most Biologist plan that MSG will be 100% success I think the true #s are 70%-80% They typically do not add a tag or 2 if someone doesn't fill in a given season. Those tag #s are pretty static and conservative year to year. I would always be a fan or returning those tags to the next person in line or having them end up on the leftover list. I was lucky enough to get a leftover list sheep tag in 2019 when somebody mailed in a ewe tag prior to the season starting. Once received processed and posted on the CPW site on the leftover list I drove to the CPW office and picked up the tag with 3 days left in the season. The system works but it's not perfect.
Sandbrew
