Colorado 2nd Draw?

[NativeIndian]

Couple things.
I don't think anyone is actually not taking their kids hunting.
Don't hate the player hate the game, everyone should absolutely take advantage of the opportunities available.
I also think the re-issue process is trash, I've also pulled a number of tags from that loophole.
So to that end don't feel guilty at all.

Now in terms of a stable system that manages opportunity this is getting ridiculous. Thread after thread about point creep, CPW holding stakeholder meetings about these issues... and then we have a system that leaks points like a sieve.

Specific example:

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This year this unit has 6 tags on the list, last I counted 12 returned, the year before 18 return.

That's a huge portion of the total tags. Tons of people are hunting this tags with 0 point cost. Further while there is a 35% NR cap during the draw there isn't a cap during the secondary draw or the reissue process. So it's possible way over 35% of the tags are going to NR.


Now to the point about the youth tags, 52 people with points applied for this unit in the main draw yet all the tags will go to kids who didn't apply for 0 points, (I guess it's possible 3 of the kids who applied and didn't draw with try again)?

How is that 1. fair 2. make any sense given all the point creep issues.

Sure some of these applicants might have gotten a second choice tag, but I bet a lot of them didn't and will send in more money to CPW crossing their fingers in what is a worthless application.

Later in the year, mark my words, more of these tags will hit the list, and will be snatched up for no points, by folks who didn't originally apply to hunt that unit.
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Agree 100%

 

[NativeIndian]

13 tags showed up in a unit that I didn't draw. The system is broken.

What they should do is look at the people who applied for those units but didn't draw and offer to them first, for the amount of points they applied with originally.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

13 tags showed up in a unit that I didn't draw. The system is broken.

If you pay attention to the re-issue it blows your mind.

More than 50% of the 2/201 pronghorn tags were returned, that's the #1 unit in the state.

There were a ton of units last year that took over 5pts that had more than 50% of their tags returned.

 

[MtnElk]

It was brought before the commission that the 80/20 v. 65/35 units needed to be re-examined?

Literally less tags than we are talking about here, not to mention the totality of the reissue process.

For me the dad draw is just one annoying symptom of the larger problem.

The entire issue is refunds, the system is so lax that people milk the crap out of it. Apply in WY or MT draw a good tag, return your CO tag. Go scout don't see big hank, return your tag... etc etc. Because of this a lot of people are applying haphazardly.

Everyone knows they can get their points back so bake that into their plans, it means A LOT of people return their tags. It creates a huge problem for CPW, they put a ton of manhours into the process. Thousands and thousands of extra transaction, running multiple draws + the reissue process.

No other state does this... why?

Way stricter refund policies.

Wyoming
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New Mexico
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MT has a strict policy but you can get a percentage of your combo refunded.

I realize it may seem like I'm changing my argument on you, not my intention. As to Timmy... so Timmy get's preference in the secondary draw and has the opportunity to hunt great tags for a handful of years while building points?

Conceivably Timmy could accrue what? 6points and hunt 5 4pt deer tags by the time he's 18? So glad Timmy get's to have his cake and eat it too... what makes Timmy more deserving than a Vet? or literally anyone else for that matter.

Timmy will have a lifetime to hunt, absolutely doe/cow tags or OTC tags, absolutely do I approve of early seasons so parents can take their kids out with less or no pressure.

As a new hunter, I was shocked how easy the return policy was here, especially relative to its immediate impact on other hunters who could have used that license. The idea that you can dump licenses as easy as you can because something better comes up, or plans change, is definitely not a good thing - nor does it help with point creep. There should be exceptions for major issues like health, death in the family, etc. But having seen QUITE a few posts on this forum alone about dumping Colorado tags when other states come through... it shows a broken system.

 

[Bluffgruff]

Two things that might help - 1) no matter how you get an A list tag, you use all of your points, OTC included, 2) make it where you can get your tag money back if you return a tag, but only get points back under extenuating circumstances.

These 2 changes will ripple and ultimately increase fairness and fix the majority of the gripes with the whole process.

 

[Dsnow9]

As someone who picked up a re-issue first season e/s elk tag and a unit 3 antelope buck tag last year I agree with my points should have been taken. Would help the system a lot. Elk tag was nothing special, 1 point tag but the antelope tag was a 10 point tag! I still have 5 points, system seems broken to me. If they haven’t fixed it in the seven years I have to wait for my daughter to be twelve. I’m not going to apply her for anything but points in the first draw and then she is going to hunt primo units for all species every year. I’ll just be her guide. That being said the system is flawed and needs help, but if they don’t fix it I’m hunting reissues and she will be hunting units I’ll never dream of!

 

[old270hunter]

Gotta say I salivated over a few of the deer tags available for the 2nd draw, especially when a couple were from my 1st choice unit. I still feel lucky I drew my second choice. I sure do like some of the suggestions above to fix the system.

 

[Whiskey Freak]

There are some good tags on the secondary.

 

[Pagosa]

I return a limited elk rifle tag during the release period and it doesn’t show up in the 2nd draw. I’m not applying for the 2nd draw, but hopefully some of these tags are going to individuals that were next in line for the required preference points, but I’m not for sure.

 

[Jdp010]

If you pay attention to the re-issue it blows your mind.
...

100%. Sickening to the folks who applied for those tags in the primary draws to see them show up later on re-issue/FCFS.

And ONLY Colorado and Nevada have this problem because of their ridiculously generous return policies and poorly designed reissue/FCFS programs. Most of the returns are RES returns (due to cost differential), and so those tags should remain RES tags.

Colorado is worse than Nevada in that they don't take existing point balances for secondary draw/re-issue. Nevada is worse than Colorado in that they lack the (minimal) safety net of Colorado's 5+ RES PP rule.

And CPW makes a person contacted last minute use his points for the tag - so it goes to re-issue where the recipient does NOT have to use his points? Perverse.

Both programs give a huge advantage to hunters with very flexible fall schedules. Especially NRs that didn't even participate in the primary draw.

I just applied four NR youth (my kids and friend's kids) for some of the premium O3/O4 buck tags above. Two of them did not even participate in the primary draw and did not even have a CPW account until today. Why should CPW let such a late-entering NR youth snipe those tags?

Only $9.31 and a $107.43 tag if drawn? Hell yeah, this NR father is going to play that game. But I feel bad for the CO Residents that CPW is disrespecting by letting me do so. But Colorado residents are pretty used to disrespect from CPW by now, right?

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

100%. Sickening to the folks who applied for those tags in the primary draws to see them show up later on re-issue/FCFS.

And ONLY Colorado and Nevada have this problem because of their ridiculously generous return policies and poorly designed reissue/FCFS programs. Most of the returns are RES returns (due to cost differential), and so those tags should remain RES tags.

Colorado is worse than Nevada in that they don't take existing point balances for secondary draw/re-issue. Nevada is worse than Colorado in that they lack the (minimal) safety net of Colorado's 5+ RES PP rule.

And CPW makes a person contacted last minute use his points for the tag - so it goes to re-issue where the recipient does NOT have to use his points? Perverse.

Both programs give a huge advantage to hunters with very flexible fall schedules. Especially NRs that didn't even participate in the primary draw.

I just applied four NR youth (my kids and friend's kids) for some of the premium O3/O4 buck tags above. Two of them did not even participate in the primary draw and did not even have a CPW account until today. Why should CPW let such a late-entering NR youth snipe those tags?

Only $9.31 and a $107.43 tag if drawn? Hell yeah, this NR father is going to play that game. But I feel bad for the CO Residents that CPW is disrespecting by letting me do so. But Colorado residents are pretty used to disrespect from CPW by now, right?

+ reissue process favors folks with flexible work schedules, online or in person.

 

[Thomas11]

100%. Sickening to the folks who applied for those tags in the primary draws to see them show up later on re-issue/FCFS.

And ONLY Colorado and Nevada have this problem because of their ridiculously generous return policies and poorly designed reissue/FCFS programs. Most of the returns are RES returns (due to cost differential), and so those tags should remain RES tags.

Colorado is worse than Nevada in that they don't take existing point balances for secondary draw/re-issue. Nevada is worse than Colorado in that they lack the (minimal) safety net of Colorado's 5+ RES PP rule.

And CPW makes a person contacted last minute use his points for the tag - so it goes to re-issue where the recipient does NOT have to use his points? Perverse.

Both programs give a huge advantage to hunters with very flexible fall schedules. Especially NRs that didn't even participate in the primary draw.

I just applied four NR youth (my kids and friend's kids) for some of the premium O3/O4 buck tags above. Two of them did not even participate in the primary draw and did not even have a CPW account until today. Why should CPW let such a late-entering NR youth snipe those tags?

Only $9.31 and a $107.43 tag if drawn? Hell yeah, this NR father is going to play that game. But I feel bad for the CO Residents that CPW is disrespecting by letting me do so. But Colorado residents are pretty used to disrespect from CPW by now, right?

Idk? I don’t really see your point? I mean the ppl that didn’t want the tag turn it back in and someone like your son that would like a tag has the opportunity to get one. To me it’s a win win for all parties

 

[TrumpkinTheDwarf]

Idk? I don’t really see your point? I mean the ppl that didn’t want the tag turn it back in and someone like your son that would like a tag has the opportunity to get one. To me it’s a win win for all parties

If they didn't want it, they shouldn't have applied for it in the standard draw. It's leading to abuse of the pref point system.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

Idk? I don’t really see your point? I mean the ppl that didn’t want the tag turn it back in and someone like your son that would like a tag has the opportunity to get one. To me it’s a win win for all parties

If the system was correctly implemented then that person would never have applied for the tag, likely the vast majority of folks that returned the thousands of tags (yes literally thousands) would never have applied in the first place.

So in a system with no refunds the above DM043E1R being a 4pt tag currently, likely would be a 2pt or maybe even a 1pt tag. So potentially the same kid who picks it up in the dad draw could get it in the regular draw, they would use their points, and CPW would save a pile of money.

The entire point being you shouldn't be able to build points and hunt great units every year, kinda negates the system.

Ask around, couple guys on here have gotten moose and sheep tags, while building points for moose and sheep.

 

[Khunter]

I would rather see tags on the reissue list than go unused. This all started with Rocky Mountain Bighorn society lobbying for reissue of returned sheep/goat/moose tags the the next folks in line, which IS a great thing for everybody given how rare those tags are, and has snowballed into a mess with all the other species coveirng many thousands of tags.

Of course in 2017, 2018, 2019 I snagged over 90 pref points worth of tags from the reissue list for deer elk, pronghorn when yiou had to catch a tag at random times.

Back in the good old days before last year’s change to Tuesday only tag rerlease guys with flexibility could snap up tags before most even knew it was available. Hardly fair but have to play these games using whatever the rules are.

Unrelated but feel same about Colo cow moose tags. No way I should be holding my 3rd cow moose tag ahead of guys who have tried and drawn none, but the rukes allow it.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

I would rather see tags on the reissue list than go unused.

Hindsight is 20/20... I'd rather have some MSG tags go un-hunted. You could probably even fix that issue by slightly elevating quotas to take into account a percentage of tags not being hunted/ isn't that kinda baked into the allocations? CPW doesn't think there will be 100% success rates on all MSG tags do they?

 

[Khunter]

If they didn't want it, they shouldn't have applied for it in the standard draw. It's leading to abuse of the pref point system.

Mostly disagree. Case in point, I very much “want” at least a 18 tags each year, and apply for 40 knowing odds are LOW for vast majority. This year I drew ID bull moose and Colo cow moose and the best archery antelope tag NM has to offer. Of course I am clearing hunt schedule to focus on these tags and had I drawn a good Colo tag that conflicted I would have returned it with a clear conscience.

It is too simplistic to lump all/most returned tags in the category of folks putting in for tags they never really had interest in.

 

[Oak]

Hindsight is 20/20... I'd rather have some MSG tags go un-hunted.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

Mostly disagree. Case in point, I very much “want” at least a 18 tags each year, and apply for 40 knowing odds are LOW for vast majority. This year I drew ID bull moose and Colo cow moose and the best archery antelope tag NM has to offer. Of course I am clearing hunt schedule to focus on these tags and had I drawn a good Colo tag that conflicted I would have returned it with a clear conscience.

It is too simplistic to lump all/most returned tags in the category of folks putting in for tags they never really had interest in.

Yeah chit happens, ask me how I know lol, and while a zero return policy wouldn't effect peoples application strategy for 1 in 10 or worse hunts or any bonus point hunt for that mater, it's absolutely ridiculous for preference points when you 100% know you will draw.

If CO was a no refund state, how would that effect your preference point apps?

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

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