Changes to MT Upland Season - Resident Priority Takes Effect This Year

[Irrelevant]

Folks had enough of the abuse, but still recognize the economic impact that upland hunting has in the region and want to just dial it back a bit.

Folks recognize that if you want to kill a limit of birds from the trip you can't let those GD outsiders in chasing them off the gravel shoulders but also can't buy an 18 pack of beer if they have to pay a reasonable license fee, so they're going to drive around for the first week and kill all the dumb fledglings but then open-er up for the people actually willing to pay for conservation...

I'm being facetious.

But MT (and WY and ID and CO) is privileged that no matter how badly they screw up their wildlife, other states will have screwed theirs up worse and can bank on NRs waiting in line, with wads of greenbacks, for an opportunity at the last scrap.

 

[huntin24/7]

One more observation I have that’s relevant is that there has been a lot of upland habitat loss the last decade or so. For the first 5+ years after moving here, I could consistently grind out limits of roosters on large bma’s all season even with high NR pressure. There is so much less good grass/habitat on these same bma’s and similar pressure that birds are pushed off most within a week of opener.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Folks recognize that if you want to kill a limit of birds from the trip you can't let those GD outsiders in chasing them off the gravel shoulders but also can't buy an 18 pack of beer if they have to pay a reasonable license fee, so they're going to drive around for the first week and kill all the dumb fledglings but then open-er up for the people actually willing to pay for conservation...

I'm being facetious.

But MT (and WY and ID and CO) is privileged that no matter how badly they screw up their wildlife, other states will have screwed theirs up worse and can bank on NRs waiting in line, with wads of greenbacks, for an opportunity at the last scrap.

 

[Ben Lamb]

One more observation I have that’s relevant is that there has been a lot of upland habitat the last decade or so. For the first 5+ years after moving here, I could consistently grind out limits of roosters on large bma’s all season even with high NR pressure. There is so much less good grass/habitat on these same bma’s and similar pressure that birds are pushed off most within a week of opener.

BMA usage has increased dramatically since COVID as well.

More people, more pressure, less habitat from drought, loss of crp, etc. It's not as easy as signing in and finding birds anymore.

 

[406dn]

Same issue in southeast region 7. Seen a group with 6-8 dogs hammer a chunk of BMA for a week straight every morning and afternoon.

If this was during hunting season, what is unknown is how many birds did they kill. My guess, if they were field trialers, they did not kill very many.

Back in the day, I killed over a hundred birds a year, year after year. We ate a lot of sharptails to stay legal. In the last dozen years, likely more, I kill less than ten birds annually. That is not because I could not, but because I find training and running a dog is what now floats my boat.

The birds are more valuable to me for the dogs to find and point them, rather than ending up in a game bag. That attitude is very common with field trialers. A bird you let fly away is a bird the dog might on another day.

 

[huntin24/7]

BMA usage has increased dramatically since COVID as well.

More people, more pressure, less habitat from drought, loss of crp, etc. It's not as easy as signing in and finding birds anymore.

The drought certainly is a major factor, but a lot of the habitat has been turned back into farmland as well. If you can get permission to hunt shelter belts 50 yards from farmhouses, you’ll have some amazing hunts starting 2-3 days after opener.

 

[Ben Lamb]

The drought certainly is a major factor, but a lot of the habitat has been turned back into farmland as well. If you can get permission to hunt shelter belts 50 yards from farmhouses, you’ll have some amazing hunts starting 2-3 days after opener.

100%.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Delayed start for upland game birds compared to delayed dates for elk/deer isn’t really an apples to apples comparison IMO. Hunting has negligible impact on upland bird populations so the delayed start is solely a hunt quality issue.

Hunting definitely impacts male/female ratios , age structure and population of ungulates. Delay in NR seasons for deer/elk could help with hunt quality but probably won’t change overall impacts of hunting on the resource. The same amount of deer and elk are getting shot, just at different times.

 

[brockel]

If this was during hunting season, what is unknown is how many birds did they kill. My guess, if they were field trialers, they did not kill very many.

Back in the day, I killed over a hundred birds a year, year after year. We ate a lot of sharptails to stay legal. In the last dozen years, likely more, I kill less than ten birds annually. That is not because I could not, but because I find training and running a dog is what now floats my boat.

The birds are more valuable to me for the dogs to find and point them, rather than ending up in a game bag. That attitude is very common with field trialers. A bird you let fly away is a bird the dog might on another day.

Never been part of field trials do they shoot when the bird flushes? Because there was plenty of gunshots throughout the day. It’s half a mile from our house so I heard plenty of them

 

[SAJ-99]

could help with hunt quality

This is the "feelings" I was talking about. There need to be more defined and measurable goals.

 

[406dn]

Never been part of field trials do they shoot when the bird flushes? Because there was plenty of gunshots throughout the day. It’s half a mile from our house so I heard plenty of them

Pointing dog field trials, on wild birds, when the birds are flushed, a blank pistol shot is fired, and the birds fly away. If it sounded like shotgun shots, they were likely hunting.

 

[Ben Lamb]

This is the "feelings" I was talking about. There need to be more defined and measurable goals.

The Human Dimensions side of wildlife management is every bit as important as the biological in many instances. As Chris Smith from WMI has often said, social science is still science (paraphrasing here).

YOu can't get hard numbers out of hunter satisfaction because you don't see it emerge as a strong data point. it's a decade long slide in hunting licenses sold, it's more used guns at the gun store, and for whatever it's worth - it's the constant stream of feedback from the user, be it digital or at a season setting meeting. If the local populace doesn't feel as connected to the wildlife in their area, they can more easily be convinced to do with far less. If hunting seasons become slogs of fighting crowds (and we can argue all day over hunter pressure. I tend to fall into the category that most Montanans would give up hunting altogether in the midwest) then you have lower participation, lower support for conservation programs and less funding through both license sales and banquets (yes - banquets raise a shitpile of cash for conservation in eastern MT).

 

[406dn]

This is the "feelings" I was talking about. There need to be more defined and measurable goals.

Not everything can be reduced to a numerical value. More than a few hunters, try to find some semblance of solitude, when hunting. I put it way on up there.

That is one big reason I've come to enjoy training bird dogs, outside of the hunting season. Often, I am the only human in a few miles.

 

[El Jason]

There is absolutely no way you can ignore the social aspect of hunting. It is intrinsic to private lands and public wildlife, as well as hunter satisfaction/participation

 

[Forkyfinder]

The same amount of deer and elk are getting shot, just at different times.

If the season ended for everyone the 14th of november - would harvest be reduced? If so - why doesnt limiting the party responsible for half the harvest not do the same thing?

It could certainly reduce elk harvest too - weather being the significant driver.

 

[SAJ-99]

Chris Smith from WMI has often said, social science is still science (paraphrasing here).

If Chris looks, he would find plenty that disagree with that. Same as saying political science is still science. It is right up until people change their mind or change the importance of variables. I feel the same with Economics. It is called the dismal science for a reason. Nonetheless, the science would probably say this is exactly what we should expect - Residents will agree to something NonResidents will have to give up.

 

[bigsky2]

One more observation I have that’s relevant is that there has been a lot of upland habitat loss the last decade or so. For the first 5+ years after moving here, I could consistently grind out limits of roosters on large bma’s all season even with high NR pressure. There is so much less good grass/habitat on these same bma’s and similar pressure that birds are pushed off most within a week of opener.

We don't need to prioritize habitat anymore, we're expanding the pheasant release program.

 

[Ben Lamb]

If Chris looks, he would find plenty that disagree with that. Same as saying political science is still science. It is right up until people change their mind or change the importance of variables. I feel the same with Economics. It is called the dismal science for a reason. Nonetheless, the science would probably say this is exactly what we should expect - Residents will agree to something NonResidents will have to give up.

Sure, but I trust Chris after 2 decades of seeing his work.

Residents will agree to something NonResidents will have to give up.

This just in - fat kids love cake!

Variables change all the time. Sagebrush steppe turns decadent and won't support the same numbers, CRP gets unenrolled and rooster numbers drop, drought, etc. Everything in wildlife mgt changes except the sport of complaining about wildlife management. TR once said something to the same effect - that the things that get conserved are the ones people find value in, both intrinsic and economic. The human side of wildlife mgt is the biggest input. Ignoring that for field surveys, lek counts and population numbers and distribution alone missed the largest impact on wildlife - us.

 

[SAJ-99]

Variables change all the time. Sagebrush steppe turns decadent and won't support the same numbers, CRP gets unenrolled and rooster numbers drop, drought, etc. Everything in wildlife mgt changes except the sport of complaining about wildlife management. TR once said something to the same effect - that the things that get conserved are the ones people find value in, both intrinsic and economic. The human side of wildlife mgt is the biggest input. Ignoring that for field surveys, lek counts and population numbers and distribution alone missed the largest impact on wildlife - us.

I don't disagree, but I think we are talking past each other a bit. Let's just say it "could be" science if they measured hunter satisfaction or hunt quality every year. But they don't. They just make a change and hope. And even if they did measurements of those warm and fuzzies, it would be shitty science because thy would never even try to make a guess at impact of the change on the measurement and then look at the result and see if they were correct.

 

[8andcounting]

It could certainly reduce elk harvest too - weather being the significant driver.

then we’ll just come out for the late shoulder season