I went to the Sportsmen and RV show today in SLC, which to say the least was pretty disappointing. But, there was an outfitter there. I was looking at the pictures of bull elk that their hunters have harvested. Then I heard the proprieter state that their elk are recognized by SCI and P&Y, but not B&C. He stated because they are a private 'ranch' that B&C will not recognize them. So I asked him how all the whitetails from the Eastern US get into B&C. He failed to mention prior to this the 10 ft high fence surrounding their 5000 acres! So, I asked if it was because of not adhereing to B&C's fair chase rules that they weren't recognized. He said no, it's because its private property. Then he took a 'reservation' for a 'hunter' wanting to shoot at least a 330 bull!!!! Seems they raise the elk elsewhere and then turn them loose on the 5000acres. I can say that I am now totally against high fence opperations of wildlife species.
Calling BS!
- Thread starter 1_pointer
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Washington Hunter
Well-known member
That is BS. He is a liar. He just didn't want to admit the real reason why their elk didn't qualify for Boone and Crockett. Private land has nothing to do with it. There are lots of wild elk on private land that would qualify for B&C. They just have to be wild and hunted by fair chase. What makes me mad is that they let that so-called outfitter into a SPORTSMAN'S show.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-22-2003 22:51: Message edited by: Washington Hunter ]</font>
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-22-2003 22:51: Message edited by: Washington Hunter ]</font>
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
Oak, yeah I was wondering about that too. I don't think it would. Doesn't P&Y use the same rules as B&C?
BuzzH
Well-known member
You know its funny how some people defend crap like that??? I never could figure it out.
I would bet that P&Y will not accept those elk in the record book.
I'll email a buddy of mine who is an official scorer for P&Y and see what he says. Report to follow.
I would bet that P&Y will not accept those elk in the record book.
I'll email a buddy of mine who is an official scorer for P&Y and see what he says. Report to follow.
I don't understand what it matters if your critter is in a book. Everything a competition? No wonder why the court rule for USO, its about a book and money, not about a rich tradition of providing food for your family, spirit and wellbeing.
Ten Bears
New member
I think the guy shouldn't have been allowed in the show either.
Why not just shoot the critter in the crate?
Why not just shoot the critter in the crate?
BuzzH
Well-known member
While getting your name in a book should never over-shadow the reason you hunt...I dont see anything wrong with putting hard-earned legally taken wildlife (not game farms critters) in record books.
Its up to each individual to decide if they want to enter their animals or not, but I have and would again if I'm fortunate enough to take a better than average specimen.
Its up to each individual to decide if they want to enter their animals or not, but I have and would again if I'm fortunate enough to take a better than average specimen.
P&Y follow the same rules as they apply to "high fence".
The term "Fair Chase" shall not include the taking of animals under the following conditions:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Helpless in a trap, deep snow or water, or on ice. <LI>From any power vehicle or power boat. <LI>While confined behind fences as on game farms, etc<LI>By "Jacklighting" or shining at night. <LI>By the use of tranquilizers or poisons. <LI>By the use of any power vehicles or power boat for herding or driving animals, including the use of aircraft to land alongside or to communicate with or direct a hunter on the ground. <LI>By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game, or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached. <LI>Any other condition considered by the Board of Directors as unsportsmanlike. [/list]
Special Note: For the purpose of the Pope & Young Club, a bow shall be defined as a longbow, recurve bow, or compound bow that is hand-held and hand-drawn, and that has no mechanical device to enable the hunter to lock the bow at full or partial draw. Other than energy stored by the drawn bow, no device to propel the arrow will be permitted. A letoff of sixty-five (65) percent on a compound bow is the maximum allowed.
The term "Fair Chase" shall not include the taking of animals under the following conditions:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Helpless in a trap, deep snow or water, or on ice. <LI>From any power vehicle or power boat. <LI>While confined behind fences as on game farms, etc<LI>By "Jacklighting" or shining at night. <LI>By the use of tranquilizers or poisons. <LI>By the use of any power vehicles or power boat for herding or driving animals, including the use of aircraft to land alongside or to communicate with or direct a hunter on the ground. <LI>By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game, or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached. <LI>Any other condition considered by the Board of Directors as unsportsmanlike. [/list]
Special Note: For the purpose of the Pope & Young Club, a bow shall be defined as a longbow, recurve bow, or compound bow that is hand-held and hand-drawn, and that has no mechanical device to enable the hunter to lock the bow at full or partial draw. Other than energy stored by the drawn bow, no device to propel the arrow will be permitted. A letoff of sixty-five (65) percent on a compound bow is the maximum allowed.
Ten Bears
New member
I curious how many hunters do this?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game, or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Can you say Motorola?
How about this, I know my bow is 65%, but newer bows come mostly with greater let offs then that.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> A letoff of sixty-five (65) percent on a compound bow is the maximum allowed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game, or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Can you say Motorola?
How about this, I know my bow is 65%, but newer bows come mostly with greater let offs then that.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> A letoff of sixty-five (65) percent on a compound bow is the maximum allowed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
Ten Bears, most states don't have the 65% maximum let-off rule. I know Washington, Oregon, and Idaho do, but most other states do not. That's why most of the newer bows have let-0ffs higher than the 65%. So they can hunt legally with say an 80% let off bow, but nothing they kill would qualify for P&Y. Did you hear about that huge whitetail that guy killed in Iowa a year or two ago? I think it would have been #1 for P&Y but didn't qualify because the bow was 80% let-off.
Buzz== do you think the "book" contributes a lot more to the problems than what many people would admit to. Poaching the biggest, "bending" the rules, breaking the "rules of ethics", the obscene amount of money spent on everything from outfitters==look at their ads(only pictures of HUGE), prices paid for all the gizmos you gotto have, trespass fees, canned hunts; you can't honestly say that no animal doesn't go from a cannedhunt to the book, list goes on snd on. Hey, it's easy for me to blame the "book", but I also blame all those people---- numerous on this site alone----- that put that much stock into a book. Pretty sad commentary on the state of our hunting tradition...strike that, our business of hunting. B/C it isn't really a tradition anymore, more of a pasttime, hobby, business.
And until more people will put forth the effort to change that, it will become just an old memory.
And until more people will put forth the effort to change that, it will become just an old memory.
BuzzH
Well-known member
LA, sure, theres probably some of that going around, poaching, etc.
I agree hunting has become too much about selling wildlife, gizmos, etc.
I like to keep it as simple as possible when I hunt and try not to use all the gadgets, but I do use some like a GPS, binos, compass, scopes, things like that.
Not all the record book animals are taken while using an outfitter or gadgets though. Thats what I really like about hunting and why I think ethics are such a huge part, you can make it as complicated or simple as you choose. Most real successful hunters would be successful even if they hunted with spears.
I dont think its right to blame the record book for peoples ego's and greed.
I agree hunting has become too much about selling wildlife, gizmos, etc.
I like to keep it as simple as possible when I hunt and try not to use all the gadgets, but I do use some like a GPS, binos, compass, scopes, things like that.
Not all the record book animals are taken while using an outfitter or gadgets though. Thats what I really like about hunting and why I think ethics are such a huge part, you can make it as complicated or simple as you choose. Most real successful hunters would be successful even if they hunted with spears.
I dont think its right to blame the record book for peoples ego's and greed.
Ten Bears
New member
BUZZ, I agree, it aint the book that makes the ego.
Point Creep
Well-known member
Lostagain.. who are the people on this site that you claim "put that much stock into a book?"
Is there a chance that you are possibly misjudging a few folks that you have never even met or know one bit about?
There will always be cheaters regardless of any record book existing. I would guess people who are poaching, are doing it for many other reasons than to have an animal listed in a record book.
Just my opinion.
Is there a chance that you are possibly misjudging a few folks that you have never even met or know one bit about?
There will always be cheaters regardless of any record book existing. I would guess people who are poaching, are doing it for many other reasons than to have an animal listed in a record book.
Just my opinion.
Ithaca 37
New member
I don't care at all about the book except as a reference. B&C scores are the most practical way for us to picture the size of the animals we're discussing. They're a lot more accurate and meaningful than someone saying they got a "great big ten point whitetail".
Point Creep
Well-known member
Ithaca.. I agree. B&C score is a good, almost universal way to describe an animal.
I hunt for trophy sized animals almost exclusively, unless filling doe tags or something like that. I don't see anything wrong with trophy hunting if it's done ethically and legally. It extends my hunting season and requires me to work a lot harder. It is much more challenging and rewarding for me personally. I would be bummed if I ended a long-awaited season and lots of preseason scouting by taking the first elk, deer, or antelope I came across. I would rather prolong the fun and set some lofty goals. But on the other hand if a guy wants to go out in a single day and shoot a small bull or cow elk, a forkie deer, or young antelope for meat and the fun, there is nothing wrong with that either. Whatever floats a guy's boat.
If my attitude makes me bad guy.. then I apologize, but I ain't changing.
I don't believe my personal hunting goals makes me "bad" for hunting though.
Lostagain.. if it does, please tell me how.
Back to the point of this post.. that game farmer, lying at the trade show.. just thought he was in Texas.
I hunt for trophy sized animals almost exclusively, unless filling doe tags or something like that. I don't see anything wrong with trophy hunting if it's done ethically and legally. It extends my hunting season and requires me to work a lot harder. It is much more challenging and rewarding for me personally. I would be bummed if I ended a long-awaited season and lots of preseason scouting by taking the first elk, deer, or antelope I came across. I would rather prolong the fun and set some lofty goals. But on the other hand if a guy wants to go out in a single day and shoot a small bull or cow elk, a forkie deer, or young antelope for meat and the fun, there is nothing wrong with that either. Whatever floats a guy's boat.
If my attitude makes me bad guy.. then I apologize, but I ain't changing.
I don't believe my personal hunting goals makes me "bad" for hunting though.
Lostagain.. if it does, please tell me how.
Back to the point of this post.. that game farmer, lying at the trade show.. just thought he was in Texas.
Off the subject I know but I am wondering about this.
"By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game, or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached."
This would mean that a lion or bear called with an e-caller would not qualify for P&Y? but one that was chased with hounds would qualify?
As far as the 65% let off, I wonder how Mathews got their 70% let off cam approved for P&Y?
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-24-2003 11:59: Message edited by: FEW ]</font>
"By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game, or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached."
This would mean that a lion or bear called with an e-caller would not qualify for P&Y? but one that was chased with hounds would qualify?
As far as the 65% let off, I wonder how Mathews got their 70% let off cam approved for P&Y?
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-24-2003 11:59: Message edited by: FEW ]</font>
ElkHntinMD
New member
Good topic.
I just attended the eastern sportsman outdoor show in PA. There are getting to be more and more canned hunt outfitters (farmers) at these shows. It's getting to be a big thing. I personnaly don't wanna shoot something unless it's free ranging. I am a trophy hunter myself. I pass on many whitetails before I tag one. It has to be bigger than my last! What's the old saying? "you can't eat the horns (antlers)" Well, that's a fact. So if it comes to putting meat in my freezer, it's all does. I let the youngins walk. I figure, I let enough of the small ones walk, I'll be rewarded with a big one someday.
I believe the Beatty buck was held from becoming the new Pope and Young non-typical of all time. For that matter I think it's the biggest non-typ ever shot by a hunter to date gun or bow. But, Poe and Young would not recognize it because Mike's bow was over the 65% let-off minimum. I just enetered my elk this year. Wasn't hard. They really don't look into it unless it's a serious contender for a top spot. My bow is 65% let-off.
Now as far as the books go, well the record books are to honor the animal for growing the headgear. It's not for the hunter. And yes the books, have set a standard for us, B&C, P&Y, SCI etc.. We use these standards because even the minimum in these books is quite an exceptional animal. I've been hunting whitetail all my life and I still don't have a pope and young qualifier, They are just an inch or two away. I have some georgious bucks on my wall though. It doesn't matter to me though I was just making a point! They hang on my wall in honor of the critter for growing the bone. Beside the fact, I love looking at their beauty! The antler business is big. They are used to make many different things. Hell, even the velvet is a big thing. That's a business also. The velevet is sold by the pound and used in aphrodesiacs(sp) Some are poaching or doing what they can to get a huge set of antlers. Fame and Fortune, notariety is there claim. Some just love to poach big critters for the bragging rights. Bottom line is, a trophy is all in the eye of the beholder. The books are supposed to be used to honor the animal, not the hunter!
I just attended the eastern sportsman outdoor show in PA. There are getting to be more and more canned hunt outfitters (farmers) at these shows. It's getting to be a big thing. I personnaly don't wanna shoot something unless it's free ranging. I am a trophy hunter myself. I pass on many whitetails before I tag one. It has to be bigger than my last! What's the old saying? "you can't eat the horns (antlers)" Well, that's a fact. So if it comes to putting meat in my freezer, it's all does. I let the youngins walk. I figure, I let enough of the small ones walk, I'll be rewarded with a big one someday.
I believe the Beatty buck was held from becoming the new Pope and Young non-typical of all time. For that matter I think it's the biggest non-typ ever shot by a hunter to date gun or bow. But, Poe and Young would not recognize it because Mike's bow was over the 65% let-off minimum. I just enetered my elk this year. Wasn't hard. They really don't look into it unless it's a serious contender for a top spot. My bow is 65% let-off.
Now as far as the books go, well the record books are to honor the animal for growing the headgear. It's not for the hunter. And yes the books, have set a standard for us, B&C, P&Y, SCI etc.. We use these standards because even the minimum in these books is quite an exceptional animal. I've been hunting whitetail all my life and I still don't have a pope and young qualifier, They are just an inch or two away. I have some georgious bucks on my wall though. It doesn't matter to me though I was just making a point! They hang on my wall in honor of the critter for growing the bone. Beside the fact, I love looking at their beauty! The antler business is big. They are used to make many different things. Hell, even the velvet is a big thing. That's a business also. The velevet is sold by the pound and used in aphrodesiacs(sp) Some are poaching or doing what they can to get a huge set of antlers. Fame and Fortune, notariety is there claim. Some just love to poach big critters for the bragging rights. Bottom line is, a trophy is all in the eye of the beholder. The books are supposed to be used to honor the animal, not the hunter!
