Caribou Gear

Bozeman: is it really that bad anymore?

Wow, my big take from this is move east my friend, Greeley be damned. Everything is getting worse. Worse than it’s past is one thing, but in a general sense is another.
 
FREAK said:
Here’s how it’s gonna work; some couple from Silicon Valley will sell their 1.8M dollar 2 bed 1 bath condo, move to BozAngles and buy a 3 bed 2 back house for 1.1 and she’ll work from home making 100k as a data scientist, he’ll work as a systems engineer making 110k for Hyundai (20k cut from his SV job). They’ll be “living the dream” because they have pretty views of the mountains and no traffic. They may not be able to get a coffee at the local coffee shop but we’ll figure that out later…
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I agree with your post with the exception of the salaries. I bet they are more like $150K-$250K. It’s like the internet has facilitated the clashing of two alternate universes by allowing people to work remotely (for companies in coastal states) while living in the intermountain west. Local communities are way behind the curve in understanding this shock to the economic system.
 
Mountain Man said:
I agree with your post with the exception of the salaries. I bet they are more like $150K-$250K. It’s like the internet has facilitated the clashing of two alternate universes by allowing people to work remotely (for companies in coastal states) while living in the intermountain west. Local communities are way behind the curve in understanding this shock to the economic system.
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Nice, sounds like I need to try and find one of these gigs.
 
www.instagram.com

Adam Greenberg | Montana REALTOR® on Instagram: "What does $300K buy you in Bozeman, MT? #mtrec #2023bozemanhousingforecast #therealadamgreenberg #cbcprimeproperties #cbdpbozeman #commercialrealestate #residentialrealestate #investmentproperty #inves

7,626 likes, 327 comments - the.real.adam.greenberg on February 10, 2023: "What does $300K buy you in Bozeman, MT? #mtrec #2023bozemanhousingforecast #therealadamgreenberg #cbcprimeproperties #cbdpbozeman #commer...".
www.instagram.com www.instagram.com
This made me chuckle.
 
Greenhorn said:
Elaborate on this part.
Yours truly,
Captain Obvious.

And no - I own zero short term rentals but know a tiny bit about short, and long term rentals in Bozeman.
Click to expand...
I have a lot of issues with STR's, which is why I will not support them by renting them.

First, how is it suddenly okay to run a mini-hotel out of a residential neighborhood? It's not zoned for that. Do you think your neighbors want to live next door to a rotating cast of partying vacationers? Uh, no. Obviously if you have a condo complex at a vacation destination, that's a different situation, but many, many STR's these days are single family homes in (formerly) peaceful residential neighborhoods, purchased by "investors" who want to profit at the expense of everybody else in the neighborhood. Buying up properties in residential neighborhoods and turning them into STR's is a problem that needs to be regulated out of existence. But the regulations haven't yet caught up to the technology (AirBnb and VRBO) that created the problem in the first place.

Second, STR's take housing stock off the market that could otherwise be purchased and occupied by working Montana residents. This drives prices through the roof because now that housing is only available to wealthy vacationing tourists, not to people seeking to buy a home and raise a family here. And a good amount of the time those STR's just sit empty--what a waste. I object to this for the same reason I object to institutional investors (asset managers and private equity firms) buying up single family homes all around the country as "investments." That's another thing that needs to be regulated out of existence. I believe the stock of single family homes in this country should be treated the same as we treat wildlife in Montana--part of the public trust, not something to be exploited for corporate profits. Working families who actually need to qualify for a mortgage can't possibly compete with corporations and wealthy real estate investors who can pay cash for any property. It is not a level playing field.

Finally, as I said in my post, the boom in STR's has resulted in a shortage of long-term rentals which are typically occupied by people who can't afford to buy houses. You know, the people who wait on your table, make your expensive coffee drink, stock shelves at the grocery store, whatever. Ask any business owner in Bozeman how hard it is to find employees. Well, no surprise, the days when you could afford to live in Bozeman and work a low-wage job are over. The rentals have either been turned into STR's for tourists willing to pay out the nose, or--the side effect of that--the rent has gotten so high in the remaining long-term rentals that the only people who can afford to "rent" them are, again, wealthy out-of-staters who might only actually live in them a few weeks a year, but nonetheless can afford to pay rent on them all year. Or, highly paid tech workers who work remotely. Again, it all adds up to fewer long-term rentals available to the local populace. Proof of this problem to me is all the Bozeman refugees I know in Helena who had to move out of Bozo because they could no longer afford the rent. I've met so many in the past couple years it's obviously a major issue.

These problems created by STR's are not unique to Bozeman, it's happening all over. In Big Sky currently they (the community) has actually started a fund to PAY property owners to rent to workers rather than go the STR route. The fund helps make up the difference in what the owners could make using the property as a STR vs. LTR. While this is laudable, it's not really a solution. The solution, as I see it, is more regulation of STR's to keep them out of neighborhoods, and laws that prohibit investors from buying up the nation's housing stock. People need affordable places to live, and I don't support individual or corporate investors exploiting that in the name of profits. I know this is America and capitalism rules, and usually I'm fine with that, but we need to know where to draw the line. Unfortunately our politicians have been very slow to recognize and address this problem. /rant
 
noisy said:
I know this is America and capitalism rules, and usually I'm fine with that, but we need to know where to draw the line. Unfortunately our politicians have been very slow to recognize and address this problem. /rant
Click to expand...
From the rant it doesn’t sound like you are fine with the capitalistic system since you “don't support individual or corporate investors exploiting that in the name of profits.” Should individuals be taking the risk of investing in Real Estate in the hopes of breaking even or at a loss then? Is it the birth right of anyone who has been born/raised/decided to move here an “affordable” place to live in the city limits of Bozeman?
I have to remind my wife of this all the time, imagine if houses here were 300k. The place would be more unrecognizable than it already is. I would bet people in Vail, Aspen, Jackson Hole, Boulder, and the list goes on went through the same ordeal, how is Bozeman any different-because this type of pace is new to MT is my only guess. Why does anyone care if a house is vacant or occupied if it isn’t theirs? That’s like worrying about what employees do with their paychecks, not my business. There is a guy who lives down the street from me who might spend 6 months a year here in Bzn and his home is vacant when he isn’t around. He worked has ass off and bought the place, who should decide what he does with it besides him? No one is the answer. Govt is almost never the answer.
 
noisy said:
I have a lot of issues with STR's, which is why I will not support them by renting them.

First, how is it suddenly okay to run a mini-hotel out of a residential neighborhood? It's not zoned for that. Do you think your neighbors want to live next door to a rotating cast of partying vacationers? Uh, no. Obviously if you have a condo complex at a vacation destination, that's a different situation, but many, many STR's these days are single family homes in (formerly) peaceful residential neighborhoods, purchased by "investors" who want to profit at the expense of everybody else in the neighborhood. Buying up properties in residential neighborhoods and turning them into STR's is a problem that needs to be regulated out of existence. But the regulations haven't yet caught up to the technology (AirBnb and VRBO) that created the problem in the first place.

Second, STR's take housing stock off the market that could otherwise be purchased and occupied by working Montana residents. This drives prices through the roof because now that housing is only available to wealthy vacationing tourists, not to people seeking to buy a home and raise a family here. And a good amount of the time those STR's just sit empty--what a waste. I object to this for the same reason I object to institutional investors (asset managers and private equity firms) buying up single family homes all around the country as "investments." That's another thing that needs to be regulated out of existence. I believe the stock of single family homes in this country should be treated the same as we treat wildlife in Montana--part of the public trust, not something to be exploited for corporate profits. Working families who actually need to qualify for a mortgage can't possibly compete with corporations and wealthy real estate investors who can pay cash for any property. It is not a level playing field.

Finally, as I said in my post, the boom in STR's has resulted in a shortage of long-term rentals which are typically occupied by people who can't afford to buy houses. You know, the people who wait on your table, make your expensive coffee drink, stock shelves at the grocery store, whatever. Ask any business owner in Bozeman how hard it is to find employees. Well, no surprise, the days when you could afford to live in Bozeman and work a low-wage job are over. The rentals have either been turned into STR's for tourists willing to pay out the nose, or--the side effect of that--the rent has gotten so high in the remaining long-term rentals that the only people who can afford to "rent" them are, again, wealthy out-of-staters who might only actually live in them a few weeks a year, but nonetheless can afford to pay rent on them all year. Or, highly paid tech workers who work remotely. Again, it all adds up to fewer long-term rentals available to the local populace. Proof of this problem to me is all the Bozeman refugees I know in Helena who had to move out of Bozo because they could no longer afford the rent. I've met so many in the past couple years it's obviously a major issue.

These problems created by STR's are not unique to Bozeman, it's happening all over. In Big Sky currently they (the community) has actually started a fund to PAY property owners to rent to workers rather than go the STR route. The fund helps make up the difference in what the owners could make using the property as a STR vs. LTR. While this is laudable, it's not really a solution. The solution, as I see it, is more regulation of STR's to keep them out of neighborhoods, and laws that prohibit investors from buying up the nation's housing stock. People need affordable places to live, and I don't support individual or corporate investors exploiting that in the name of profits. I know this is America and capitalism rules, and usually I'm fine with that, but we need to know where to draw the line. Unfortunately our politicians have been very slow to recognize and address this problem. /rant
Click to expand...
I think you're very misinformed and have been hearing a lot of sob stories that are likely 95% bullshit.

Have you ever had a long-term rental(s) next to or across from you that was purchased by a "slum-lord" type property management company, or better yet, a wealthy parent, for their kid in college and all their partying buddies and friends/vehicles? I can tell you that 100% of the STRs I'm familiar with are appreciated by their neighbors, far more so, than I have been with terrible long term renters that I've had near me a few times. Night and Day.

STRs are occupied by loud, destructive, partying vacationers? What evidence do you have of this? Do you know how VRBOs work (ratings)? They would not be successful over time serving a market like that - for either the renter or tenants. I've NEVER once seen that in 5 years of being involved with a rental and the neighbors. Also, I've never once behaved like that when staying in one.

STRs are being mass purchased by wealthy investors, to largely sit "empty". Only for "tourists" willing to pay through the nose? Sounds like you think options for visitors to Bozeman and elsewhere should only be a $150-$600/night for a bed, shower and a toilet?

Wealthy out-of-staters are "renting" houses and only stay in them part of the year, as a result of the rent going up, due to STRs? The "shortage" in homes and "long term rentals" is a result of STRs. How do you figure that? Got some data?

It sounds to me like you've been talking to folks that didn't work, save, invest, and buy a home, or at the right time, and now looking for something to blame. Whoa is me, I had to pack up and move to Helena. Boo effing hoo.

The only STRs I'm familiar with are owned and maintained by working class locals, who worked, saved and bought a home at the right time. They don't want to rent them long term as they often have to be gutted after tenants move out, there's less control over the condition and upkeep by the owner as they might move back into it someday. There is more income potential, but it takes way more work.

You really think you should "regulate" who gets to purchase a home?

FYI, STRs are "regulated" in Bozeman, licensed, taxed, and only allowed in limited zoning, unless they were "grandfathered" in 3-4 years ago.
 
Last edited:
Hem said:
Wow...beg, borrow,or steal.
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the best was my partner & I were $200k short on 1200 ac ranch @ Cambria with a creek & the beach. Our rich relatives thought we were nuts.
I sent my uncle the clipping of the ranch being sold to the Nature Conservancy for $26million,5 years later. LOL
 
hank4elk said:
the best was my partner & I were $200k short on 1200 ac ranch @ Cambria with a creek & the beach. Our rich relatives thought we were nuts.
I sent my uncle the clipping of the ranch being sold to the Nature Conservancy for $26million,5 years later. LOL
Click to expand...
Shoulda, coulda, woulda,...didn't.
I didn't remotely have a crystal ball.
Very carefree though.😁
 
Greenhorn said:
I think you're very misinformed and have been hearing a lot of sob stories that are likely 95% bullshit.

Have you ever had a long-term rental(s) next to or across from you that was purchased by a "slum-lord" type property management company, or better yet, a wealthy parent, for their kid in college and all their partying buddies and friends/vehicles? I can tell you that 100% of the STRs I'm familiar with are appreciated by their neighbors, far more so, than I have been with terrible long term renters that I've had near me a few times. Night and Day.

STRs are occupied by loud, destructive, partying vacationers? What evidence do you have of this? Do you know how VRBOs work (ratings)? They would not be successful over time serving a market like that - for either the renter or tenants. I've NEVER once seen that in 5 years of being involved with a rental and the neighbors. Also, I've never once behaved like that when staying in one.

STRs are being mass purchased by wealthy investors, to largely sit "empty". Only for "tourists" willing to pay through the nose? Sounds like you think options for visitors to Bozeman and elsewhere should only be a $150-$600/night for a bed, shower and a toilet?

Wealthy out-of-staters are "renting" houses and only stay in them part of the year, as a result of the rent going up, due to STRs? The "shortage" in homes and "long term rentals" is a result of STRs. How do you figure that? Got some data?

It sounds to me like you've been talking to folks that didn't work, save, invest, and buy a home, or at the right time, and now looking for something to blame. Whoa is me, I had to pack up and move to Helena. Boo effing hoo.

The only STRs I'm familiar with are owned and maintained by working class locals, who worked, saved and bought a home at the right time. They don't want to rent them long term as they often have to be gutted after tenants move out, there's less control over the condition and upkeep by the owner as they might move back into it someday. There is more income potential, but it takes way more work.

You really think you should "regulate" who gets to purchase a home?

FYI, STRs are "regulated" in Bozeman, licensed, taxed, and only allowed in limited zoning, unless they were "grandfathered" in 3-4 years ago.
Click to expand...
Scottsdale has lots of STRs that are definitely not loved by neighbors. My HOA is considering requiring noise sensors which alert the police department when decibels spike from activity within STR properties. Palm Springs has the sensors. Perhaps the issue is more prevalent where people arrive with a mindset to party like its 1999.

STRs are an alternative use for houses which is rather recent. Home values are pushed higher when STRs are considered a viable option. Every STR conversion takes a house out of the available inventory of houses to be occupied by a local resident. Demand of housing by residents is relatively stable so as supply of housing falls then prices rise yet wages have no reason to respond with corresponding raises. Sure, this is capitalism. But not win-win capitalism.

Housing does not expand quickly so the issue can create destabilization that lasts a decade or more impacting those at the lower echelon of the working class and those on fixed incomes. Can result in gutting the vibrancy of a community, especially those that lack diversified industries. Here is but one example: https://www.durangoherald.com/artic...for-workers-amid-the-historic-labor-shortage/
 
Looking back at the title of this thread, I want to laugh @ how ass-backward Bozeangeles spun... I want to laugh though it's too fking sad.

Montana is on to a new era, the "Yellowstone" era.
 
LopeHunter said:
Scottsdale has lots of STRs that are definitely not loved by neighbors. My HOA is considering requiring noise sensors which alert the police department when decibels spike from activity within STR properties. Palm Springs has the sensors. Perhaps the issue is more prevalent where people arrive with a mindset to party like its 1999.

STRs are an alternative use for houses which is rather recent. Home values are pushed higher when STRs are considered a viable option. Every STR conversion takes a house out of the available inventory of houses to be occupied by a local resident. Demand of housing by residents is relatively stable so as supply of housing falls then prices rise yet wages have no reason to respond with corresponding raises. Sure, this is capitalism. But not win-win capitalism.

Housing does not expand quickly so the issue can create destabilization that lasts a decade or more impacting those at the lower echelon of the working class and those on fixed incomes. Can result in gutting the vibrancy of a community, especially those that lack diversified industries. Here is but one example: https://www.durangoherald.com/artic...for-workers-amid-the-historic-labor-shortage/
Click to expand...
Greenhorn says, "No Saran Wrap for you!"
I think he's saying what my flight instructor once told me, "Straight, go to the mall and buy yourself some of that Saran Wrap underwear ... so when you get your head up your butt ... then you can see out!"
 
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