Bill with no sporting reps, three landowners on Commission one vote from passage

[Big Shooter]

Again.....maybe a bit more research needed to be done by not only you but this “outfitter” that you know. A lot of what you attempted to spell out for us is very true.....but it’s never a good idea to paint a group with such a broad brush.....no matter which side of the fence you are on.

 

[Walkalot]

Big shooter, can u explain to me how the privatization of mt hunting helps residents and non residents. Also inform me on targetting bull elk in over objective units is the answer to the problem. And if they did allow some if these bills to pass but for cow elk only would moga still be interested.

 

[Big Shooter]

One thing I’m TRYING to tell you.......MOGA DID NOT bring forward the bill to target the bulls in over objective areas.....plain and simple!! You would have to ask quite a few of us if we agree with it before you could find ones that do. I talk to quite a few outfitters in a given day and I have yet to talk to one that likes that bill, in fact I know of a couple that have called the ones responsible for it and chewed their ass. AGAIN.......do your research to find out if our industry (privatizing MT hunting as you call it) agrees with it.

What was the main complaint I/we heard this fall after season on social media or forums?? I know this one.....overcrowding on public or BM. Guess what though.....they weren’t our clients causing it for the fact that our clients were on lands that a DIY person can’t get to. But here‘s what happened this past year and why the overcrowding was such a problem....when an outfitter lost a client in the draw, which MANY did because of higher demand, that tag ended up in a nonresident DIY hunters hand and they flocked to the public.....and why wouldn’t they. Now, if that continues (which it will) and gets continually worse, the overcrowding will not get any better.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

One thing I’m TRYING to tell you.......MOGA DID NOT bring forward the bill to target the bulls in over objective areas.....plain and simple!! You would have to ask quite a few of us if we agree with it before you could find ones that do. I talk to quite a few outfitters in a given day and I have yet to talk to one that likes that bill, in fact I know of a couple that have called the ones responsible for it and chewed their ass. AGAIN.......do your research to find out if our industry (privatizing MT hunting as you call it) agrees with it.

What was the main complaint I/we heard this fall after season on social media or forums?? I know this one.....overcrowding on public or BM. Guess what though.....they weren’t our clients causing it for the fact that our clients were on lands that a DIY person can’t get to. But here‘s what happened this past year and why the overcrowding was such a problem....when an outfitter lost a client in the draw, which MANY did because of higher demand, that tag ended up in a nonresident DIY hunters hand and they flocked to the public.....and why wouldn’t they. Now, if that continues (which it will) and gets continually worse, the overcrowding will not get any better.

Instead of taking out 1 client at $6000 a pop per 1280acres to shoot a 6x6 bull why not let 4 people on at $1500 to shoot raghorns, and let them do it DIY?

My wife's family owns a ranch in CO, the going price for access in that area is stupid. I've talked to various neighbors about it over the years. They all want like $2500 -$4000 for just access. There are a pile of deer and elk on their fields. They hardly ever have takers for the prices they ask, they blame the "quality" being low because to many bucks are killed on public, and about the seasons being too long, and about the dates being too late. I have asked why they don't just charge $100 for a doe and $500 for the smaller bucks they do have and just get more people out there... they look at me like I'm insane, then spend October and November with binos writing down license plant numbers and blowing up the CPW switch boards every time someone stops to look at a deer.

I feel like telling them their business model sucks.

Maybe a totally different situation where your at, this is just where I'm coming from and the back story to my point of view.

Not trying to be a dick.

 

[Walkalot]

The main complaint that i heard last yr was, alot of the elk go onto private lands that do not allow hunting unless u want to pay $$$$. My thought and alot of other tax payers is. Ranches that dont allow access should not get any gov/state help. Seems like thats waste of tax payer money to me and others. Basically tax money supporting special interest. would guess that u are losing clients is that alot of people are realizing that they dont need to go with an outfitter to hunt. Yes there will always be guys that want to go on little yellowstones to shoot elk but its losing its appeal/respect from the common hunter. Yes public land gets hammered/overcrowded but that comes down to fwp management, which i dont believe they are allowed to do. They have a title of bio or whatever but thats it. Its too obvious what some of these bills are trying to do. ( ya lets make it utah)Its wrong and not a good thing for a public land hunter.

 

[Walkalot]

So your saying gaurenting outfitters tags helps the public lands because it forces nonresidents to hunt private land and not public. True be a few less on the public but theres way more than that too these bills. And that does not fix any problems realistically. Should we pass a bill for nonresidents that are going to be hunting public land that they need to only buy there supplies in mt. Why only help the outfitter out.

 

[Big Shooter]

Instead of taking out 1 client at $6000 a pop per 1280acres to shoot a 6x6 bull why not let 4 people on at $1500 to shoot raghorns, and let them do it DIY?

My wife's family owns a ranch in CO, the going price for access in that area is stupid. I've talked to various neighbors about it over the years. They all want like $2500 -$4000 for just access. There are a pile of deer and elk on their fields. They hardly ever have takers for the prices they ask, they blame the "quality" being low because to many bucks are killed on public, and about the seasons being too long, and about the dates being too late. I have asked why they don't just charge $100 for a doe and $500 for the smaller bucks they do have and just get more people out there... they look at me like I'm insane, then spend October and November with binos writing down license plant numbers and blowing up the CPW switch boards every time someone stops to look at a deer.

I feel like telling them their business model sucks.

Maybe a totally different situation where your at, this is just where I'm coming from and the back story to my point of view.

Not trying to be a dick.

I don’t think you are trying to be a Dick at all. I can honestly say that I personally can’t agree with your theory though. Why would they let more people in to hunt for less money to kill the younger bulls/bucks that are up and comers for the years to come? There is way less impact to the resource at the $6000 for one person vs. $1500 a piece for 4. Again, just my thoughts.

Walkalot....first of all, guided hunts are not losing their appeal nearest I can tell, possibly just the opposite. I will agree on your theory of why public ground is mismanaged though. With that being said, the less orange coats that are on public, rubbing shoulders with you is better for not only you but the resource as well. Within our current system, the overcrowding is going to get worse and worse due to what I explained in a previous post. The reason that some outfitters are losing clients is due to the draw odds, not because of lack of interest, believe me. Anybody that runs even a decent operation right now is covered up with potential clients, so that is not the problem.

 

[FlatlanderAZ]

Man, Montana is not messing around. Ranchers and Outfitters really do feel entitled to run the State ow red wildlife there.

Here in AZ we are too busy fighting about stupid trail cams.

 

[Schism]

Edited. I haven't had enough coffee so I was a bit grumpy.

 

[Buffs35]

Montana should just get it over with. Non-residents must have a net worth over 1MM to apply, tags cost 10k and are only good for private land, all Non-residents must be accompanied by 2 guides at all times, even when they are slinging singles at sagebrush sams.

 

[WIbiggame]

Anybody that runs even a decent operation right now is covered up with potential clients, so that is not the problem.

As I have asked several times without an answer. Than why do you need an early draw or set aside tags?

 

[tjones]

Anybody that runs even a decent operation right now is covered up with potential clients, so that is not the problem.

So besides being booked out outfitters still need set asides?
The double talk and spin coming from Montana outfitters is crazy. The greed and selfishness is over the top.

And MOGA can’t figure out why they are so disliked.

 

[OntarioHunter]

Edited. I haven't had enough coffee so I was a bit grumpy.

Too much coffee makes ME grumpy. Oh no. Now I'll be reported for jumping topic. Better get me a blindfold and cigarette.

 

[rustednuts]

The reason that some outfitters are losing clients is due to the draw odds, not because of lack of interest, believe me. Anybody that runs even a decent operation right now is covered up with potential clients, so that is not the problem.

Are you saying that since the draw odds are now less than 100% with no points. Outfitters have potential clients lined up but the inability to convert them to actual clients because now you have wait for them to draw the tag instead of it being leftover?

If that is the case I understand how that changes the business model and the “squeeze” outfitters might feel. I don’t agree with the outfitter draw. However, that point makes a lot more sense than “instability” and other claims that MOGA is making that makes it sounds like outfitters can’t do basic math.

@Big Shooter I appreciate you engaging on this and having real dialogue.

 

[OntarioHunter]

Restricting committee membership specifically to ranchers makes absolutely no sense to me. What qualifies them to make wildlife management decisions? Just owning farm land? Really? What economic stake do they have in wildlife management if they are purely agricultural? Come on, we can see who this is directed at: the rich slobs who buy a ranch so they can run an outfitting business. Why would a wheat farmer in Joplin be interested in wasting time at Helena messing with something that really has no benefit to his business? I suppose it would make more sense to mandate that a certain number of commission seats have to be filled by motel or restaurant or gas station owners. They clearly have a bigger economic stake in wildlife management than ranchers. What might make sense would be to mandate that all commission members have some educational background in biology or wildlife management. Just being a businessman (outfitter or otherwise) or farmer or teacher or journalist does not automatically confer some knowledge about wildlife management. Or some ability or desire to develop some knowledge of wildlife management.

My experience growing up in Montana was the self-interested political hack amateurs appointed to F&G Commission (car dealers, brewers, ranchers, etc.) were a giant size pain in the ass for wildlife managers. Seems little has changed. This bill has the potential to make the Commission a much bigger pain in the ass for managers.

 

[Big Shooter]

As I have asked several times without an answer. Than why do you need an early draw or set aside tags?

Your answer is this: We can have all sorts of clients book hunts....but if they cant get a tag, than it’s a mute point! That’s why! That’s why all of this nonsense about “guaranteed clients“ is BS! We have the potential clients, but their inability to acquire a license is not there. So....like I stated earlier, if that tag does not go to one of our clients that will be hunting land that is un-accessible, it will go into the hands of another DIY hunter that will be sitting at your trailhead or gate to BM waiting for their turn in line.

Rustednuts is spot on!

 

[Walkalot]

Call what it is, its a grab to secure the future of outfitters. Its a business that only has a need because public lands are so mismanaged. And landowners can double dip basically. Get state/gov help then turn around and sell wildlife basically that are always said to be the publics. Ya totally see what going on. Stack the deck and make public land less desirable get more business.

 

[Walkalot]

Why not pass a bill that outfitters can only guide on public land or private open to the public. Have a feeling alot of things would change the the way montana is managed. And maybe not so corupt

 

[WIbiggame]

Thank you for the reply and being willing to engage in conversation it is greatly appreciated. I am truly trying to understand where you are coming from and not trying to be a dick.

That’s why all of this nonsense about “guaranteed clients“ is BS!

It would be guaranteed clients tho if you got your 39% tags am I correct? As this is what your client base is already?

it will go into the hands of another DIY hunter that will be sitting at your trailhead or gate to BM waiting for their turn in line.

As those tags should the other DIY guys have just as much right to the tag as myself and your clients. On that same token if you and your colleagues get 39% of the tags as proven already my odds go WAY DOWN so I won't be sitting at the trailhead bc my odds of drawing a tag would be about ever 2nd-3rd year, I can figure this out bc the PP system is pretty easy.

I get that you have to make a living and I am sure it sucks not knowing if you clients will get a tag or not. But guess what, it sucks that my area is flooded with medical helicopters and my company might not get called bc EMS or hospitals can call whoever they want such is life.

Also I have seen a total of 5 DIY hunters while hunting in 7yrs of hunting MT, so there isn't a line waiting at the trailhead this isn't CO it has always been 17000 elk tags for 20yrs the NR #s aren't going up, now the resident licensen plates I see sure have. Now I just archery hunt so that might be it to I don't know.

My main question to you is, why does yourself along with the other Outfitters feel your clients deserve a tag more than a DIY guy? And why can't you tell your clients we have you on the book if you draw we can take you if not we have you on the list for next year? Seems like a simple conversation with your clients explaining that western big game hunting is popular and they might not get a tag would go along way?

 

[Eric Albus]

walk, that quote is from a moron who may hold an outfitters license.